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harry_eales
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Information wanted.
Dec 4th, 2014 at 2:17pm
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I an trying to trace whoever it was that purchased a Niedner Borchardt that belonged to the late Michael Petrov, that was sold at the Amoskeag Auction House on the 22nd November. See:- (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

I am not interested in purchasing this rifle, but I am interested in what Niedner did to it during the conversion. A few months before he passed Michael sent me some coloured photographs of the breech block internal parts, unfortunately he didn't take out a pin towards the front of the block, I'd like to know what it was that the pin retained. A photograph or two would be ideal.

Michael said he would strip it down the next time he shot it, sadly that was never to be.

Warning. If you are the owner, please be aware that the Auction Catalogue is possibly wrong in it's identification of the cartridge. Michael told me it was .25" Krag, another knowledgeable ASSRA member believes it to be .25"HP a wildcat based on the Krag Cartridge and Amoskeag say it was in .257" Roberts. All three are wildcat rounds, so if your the new owner have it checked out before firing it. 

If anyone out there is the proud new owner and is willing to help me out, please send me a PM through this site. Thank you. N.B. there is a five to seven hour difference in my time here and your time in the USA, so you may not get an immediate answer.  Roll Eyes
Harry

EDIT. I am attaching a picture of the breech block concerned, the pin is circled in red. Few of the internal components of the original rifle were used in this breech block. Picture courtesy of the late Michael Petrov.
« Last Edit: Dec 4th, 2014 at 2:57pm by »  
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40_Rod
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Re: Information wanted.
Reply #1 - Dec 5th, 2014 at 10:55am
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From the photo it looks like the block is bushed for a smaller firing pin. I’d bet the pin holds the bushing in place.

40 Rod
  
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waterman
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Re: Information wanted.
Reply #2 - Dec 5th, 2014 at 12:54pm
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Sometime back, Michael Petrov posted a photo he called "The Woodchuck Shooters".  The rifle in question is 2nd from the left in that photo.  Michael wrote, maybe here and certainly on the Doublegun Singlebarrel Forum, about the .25 Krag wildcat made using the chambering reamers made for Dr. Mann's rifle and about his adventures with bore-diameter, base band jacketed bullets.  I think that this is the rifle Michael used for those experiments.   

Somewhere in Michael's stuff were the swages and dies needed to form bullets & cases for this rifle. I hope the new owner can put all the pieces together.
  
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harry_eales
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Re: Information wanted.
Reply #3 - Dec 5th, 2014 at 2:52pm
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40 Rod,

Thanks for your input, had this been an original Borchardt breech block I would have agreed with you, but in this instance it was made from scratch by Niedner and therefore wouldn't have had a large firing pin hole to start with. It was a point I admit I had thought about myself but dismissed it on the grounds that it was a brand new breech block. A good and sound suggestion nevertheless. Smiley

Waterman,
The buyer will have one heck of a job finding them as they are almost certainly have been sold already. Michaels close friend and firearms executor Jo-Do has been disposing of all of Michaels small items and books via FleaBay over the past few months. the Amoskeag Auction is really the final part of the collection apart from a few books that are left. Where Joe could match tools etc, to rifles, I believe he did so, but only Michael really knew what pieces went with which rifle. It is a shame, but sadly that does sometimes happen if everything is not very well 
labelled.

Given that Joe was also the firearms executor for
the firearms section of the late John Wills estate I think he has done a sterling job for the wives and families of both men. I am aware of the picture you sent, but I couldn't open it as my computer informed me it was corrupted. Thanks anyway.

Harry
  
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JLouis
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Re: Information wanted.
Reply #4 - Dec 5th, 2014 at 3:10pm
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From Michael in regards to Dr. Bakers .25-HP Niedner and possibly the rifle in question.

John,
The cocking piece is Niedners way of having a safety on a sporting rifle when he installed DST's and removed the Borchardt safety.
 
Harry I doubt that this is helpful to your request but I thought it might serve to be helpful to the new owner should he visit this site.

John Louis

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« Last Edit: Dec 5th, 2014 at 3:46pm by JLouis »  

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harry_eales
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Re: Information wanted.
Reply #5 - Dec 6th, 2014 at 7:36am
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John,
additional information is always of assistance, thank you. I am rather surprised that Niedner didn't also adopt the Zischang safety that he made for at least two of the rifles that he adapted to take his beautiful DST's. Old man Zischang was really a brilliant gunsmith. His safety device was entirely contained within the under lever and within an inch or so of the shooters trigger finger. I suppose though, that because so few were made it is possible that Niedner didn't know about it.

Once I get my mill modified (I'm making new lead screws for it and adding a larger Y axis, and the weather gets warmer in my workshop, it was -6 C. in there this morning) I plan to make one using a spare but, as yet, unfinished Borchardt lever I made. I intend photographing the project and will report back on this forum as work advances, so others can see how it was made and operated. It was designed for a right handed man, but, just altering two machine cuts and a movement of one locating or detent pin, it can be used by a left handed person.  Smiley

Harry.

« Last Edit: Dec 6th, 2014 at 7:44am by »  
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Re: Information wanted.
Reply #6 - Dec 6th, 2014 at 10:51am
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Harry,
Maybe you have figured this all out, but the complexity of the Niedner breech block is just beginning to dawn on me.

Looking at the picture, appears to be a cam angle on the breech block. Does not fit with a Borchardt, but maybe just the angle of the picture.

Has to be a firing pin retractor to lower the breech block. Maybe this was done with a cam on the link. Don't think you would want the firing pin sitting on the primer when the action was loaded and closed before the plunger was cocked. Something has to hold the firing pin retracted until it is cocked unless it is a rebounding type, which I doubt. Set triggers would add to the complexity. I am assuming the action has to be manually cocked and not self cocking.

Did not answer your question, but it is an amazing and and beautiful piece of work and Niedner probably figured out a simple solution to all these issues.
Chuck 
  
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harry_eales
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Re: Information wanted.
Reply #7 - Dec 6th, 2014 at 2:18pm
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Hello Chuck,

The photograph is deceptive, the breech block moves in exactly the same way as a typical Borchard. I think what is making you think otherwise, is the front edge of the right had side of the breech block which is cut back to clear the extractor, when the block is low enough then a projection on the block activates the extractor.

As far as I am aware, there is no difference in operation of the linkage inside the block, just like the old time shotguns that didn't have rebounding hammers, the mechanism (striker)had to brought manually to safe position (half cock) before the breech could be opened without damage. I am informed by a friend who handled this rifle when it was on display at the auction that the action could also be opened with the striker at full cock. The striker movement is very, very short indeed. 

The only original Borchardt parts in the new block are, the sear lever with its pin, the link and it's two screws. All the rest is all new. If carrying a single shot rifle when out hunting then the safest way is to carry it unloaded, secondly the chamber can have a live round in it, and the action closed if, the striker is held securely by the sear being engaged is the 'safe notch' on the striker. (with this design of striker only) It is a fascinating design all round. Doc Baker used to shoot varmints from a stand so didn't have to walk around with the rifle loaded or not and his target shooting was also done from a fixed point. So no real safety problems to worry about, and as long as you brought the striker back to the safe notch you would have no problems with the firing pin tip being still embedded in the primer.  A similar practice to other cartridge firing Sharps rifles where you had to bring the hammer back to half cock before dropping the breach block, and for the same reason. The striker had screwed in firing pin tips and if you had a few spares it didn't really matter if you occasionally broke one.

Harry
  
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