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CajunRebel
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Rookie Mistake/Question - Stir Pot/Pistol Primer
Oct 8th, 2014 at 11:16am
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After moulding 500 bullets realized the variance in weight was because I didn't periodically stir the pot (duh).  Using Rotometals (4yr-old order) 1:25, other than when adding lead, how often should I stir the pot?  

Using IMR4227 in .32-40 (fixed cartridge), Winchester case, Win. LR primers.  Would it be beneficial to use LPP?  I know the probable answer is experiment but I hate to buy a brick and not have a further need for it.  No one to borrow from or swap.
  
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waterman
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Re: Rookie Mistake/Question - Stir Pot/Pistol Primer
Reply #1 - Oct 8th, 2014 at 11:35am
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Pistol primers:  For me, much depends on the rifle.  I have 3 that will not always fire a rifle primer.  Ammo for them always gets pistol primers.  Some shops still sell the little trays of 100 primers.
  
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frnkeore
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Re: Rookie Mistake/Question - Stir Pot/Pistol Primer
Reply #2 - Oct 8th, 2014 at 11:58am
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Regarding primers, I've used pistol primers (mostly F150) with 4227 for 30 years. 4227 isn't sinitive about primers and both rifle and pistol work well.

I don't stir the pot after fluxing.

Frank
  

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JLouis
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Re: Rookie Mistake/Question - Stir Pot/Pistol Primer
Reply #3 - Oct 8th, 2014 at 1:18pm
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I flux at the beginning of the casting session and don't stir the pot during. Each session is generly 118 bullets but at times if in the mood I will do a 168 or at times 218. The extra 18 are to cover any rejects of which is typically 2 to 8. I don't keep any rejects for foulers, I only use match quality bullets. Also shot in the order cast and they weigh within 4 tenths or less.

JLouis
  

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CajunRebel
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Re: Rookie Mistake/Question - Stir Pot/Pistol Primer
Reply #4 - Oct 8th, 2014 at 1:50pm
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.4, holy smokes! Shocked

This is my second effort at this mould.  The first (many deformities) was a break-in period more for me than the mould.  My session (goal) was 200-225/session in 2x 4-hour periods.  825-850 degrees seems to work best for the Hoch .322 (non-tapered) (208grs (?).  But the majority of bullets vary from 207-209 grains.  A few are as high as 210, few others low as 200gr.  There was definitely a great improvement in the shape of the bullets produced.  I am using a Lyman Mag20 bottom pour.  I tried a ladle but couldn't get the hang of it (malformations/incomplete bullets).  Obviously by consistency leaves a lot to be desired.

Primers - are the pistols primer primarily for the older rifles with weaker springs?  I haven't had any fail to fire.
  
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Re: Rookie Mistake/Question - Stir Pot/Pistol Primer
Reply #5 - Oct 8th, 2014 at 2:00pm
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Quote:
Primers - are the pistols primer primarily for the older rifles with weaker springs?  I haven't had any fail to fire
.

They will help with weak springs but, I didn't use them for that. I used them for accuracy with 4759, 4227 and Win 296.

Like I said, you can use most any good primer with 4227 so, buy what you think will be good for your other rifles, too.

Frank
  

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JLouis
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Re: Rookie Mistake/Question - Stir Pot/Pistol Primer
Reply #6 - Oct 8th, 2014 at 2:55pm
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Pistol primers are shorter than rifle primers by design and when the charge goes off they hammer the the face of the breach block. There has been some damage to the breach block reported over the years and all though not typical it is still a concern to me so I simply just don't use them.
In regards to casting bullets the ladle once you get use to using it is probably the better way to go. I bottom poured with the 20lb. Lee pot for several years and what I found in regards to casting bullets within 4 tenths was the proper adjustment of the stream of alloy coming out of the nozzele. What worked for me was a light steady stream just a tad beyond the dripping stage. This keeps the head pressure generated from the weight of the alloy in the pot very consistent through out the casting session. Also once you get started move along very quickely, when the sprue sets cut it off, drop the bullet and quickely refill the mould and keep that pace going until you are completly done. I would also stay with the 800 or slightly higher maybe 5-10 degrees casting temp you are using.

JLouis
« Last Edit: Oct 8th, 2014 at 3:01pm by JLouis »  

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Re: Rookie Mistake/Question - Stir Pot/Pistol Primer
Reply #7 - Oct 8th, 2014 at 5:51pm
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I stir the pot each time I put the ladle back in.
LG
  

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Re: Rookie Mistake/Question - Stir Pot/Pistol Primer
Reply #8 - Oct 8th, 2014 at 9:11pm
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With a ladle do you press the ladle against the opening or do you pour the lead into the opening?  I tried holding the ladle tight against the opening then flipping over but often kept getting an small hole (air pocket).
« Last Edit: Oct 8th, 2014 at 9:37pm by CajunRebel »  
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Re: Rookie Mistake/Question - Stir Pot/Pistol Primer
Reply #9 - Oct 8th, 2014 at 9:18pm
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CajunRebel wrote on Oct 8th, 2014 at 9:11pm:
With a ladle do you press the ladle against the opening or do you pour the lead into the opening?  I tried holding the ladle tight against the opening but often kept getting an small hole (air pocket).

  Been there and done that.  Your mold needs better venting.  I hold it tight and wait for the spruce to get  close hardening, then leave a puddle on the top . Bob
  

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Re: Rookie Mistake/Question - Stir Pot/Pistol Primer
Reply #10 - Oct 9th, 2014 at 9:02am
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Like John Louis I don’t use Pistol primers. Years ago Gary Hamilton showed me how to adjust my 44 ½ so the hammer fall had enough strength to set off rifle primers correctly. Rifles can set off primers unreliably leading to larger groups. Weak or springs that are not properly adjusted can be the cause. For rifles where the spring is not adjustable I have fixed the problem by making a new firing pin that is slightly longer. I have found that as little as .003” can make a difference in group size. Simply setting a primer off is not enough it must be set off consistently. 
  As to stirring the pot, I give the pot three stirs every time I cast a new bullet. Three stirs pull out the dipper put it to the spru hole and tip the mold vertical. Then I crack the dipper slightly away from the spru hole and allow the balance of the metal in the dipper to run out. This agitates the top and drives out air bubbles. Following this method and keeping a good rhythm I can keep most of my bullets within ½ of a tenth of a grain.

40 Rod
  
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feather
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Re: Rookie Mistake/Question - Stir Pot/Pistol Primer
Reply #11 - Oct 9th, 2014 at 3:38pm
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j lewis and all,

Regarding the cratering of the breech face with pistol primers I can only offer this information.  I have used large pistol primers in thousands of black powder cartridges and four different rifles without any problems.  Black powder requires very little fire to ignite the powder.  In fact, when smokeless powder was first introduced, primers had to be made hotter to provide proper ignition and avoid misfires and hang fires.

Currently manufactured large rifle primers are .009" longer than currently produced large pistol primers.  Using pistol primers in rifle cartridges allows the primer to slam rearward against the breech face and this can cause cratering in soft steels.  I have overcome this problem by inserting a .007" card wad between the primer and the cartridge case pocket.

I do this by cutting 45 caliber wads from a .007" thick index card.  Using an RCBS bench mounted priming tool, I insert the primer into the seating punch; slide a wad into the shell holder and then insert the base of the case into the shell holder.  Operating the lever causes the primer to cut the wad and seat the primer at the same time.   I have a wire strung across my reloading bench and I use a bungy cord and large rubber band attached to the handle of the priming tool and the wire.  That keeps the seating stem in position to allow the primer, wad and case to be inserted into the shell holder.

Whether or not this would work with smokeless powder I do not know, but it will work with black.  I offer this information only to expand our knowledge base.

feather
  
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CajunRebel
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Re: Rookie Mistake/Question - Stir Pot/Pistol Primer
Reply #12 - Oct 9th, 2014 at 3:54pm
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Thanks to everyone for your input.  Will definitely switch to ladle for my next session.  I'm envious of those maintaining a 1/2 of a tenth of a grain.  That's darn right magic.
  
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Re: Rookie Mistake/Question - Stir Pot/Pistol Primer
Reply #13 - Oct 13th, 2014 at 11:39am
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Cajun;
I think over time you will discover, and agree that casting good bullets is really an art form and as such everyone will have their own techniques.
I cast in my shop so I have a couple of different routines that I employ to get consistent bullets depending on the time of Year/weather.  You will spend many hours trying to find what works the best 'for you'.  As your experience grows you will start to learn what works for you and what doesn't.  The key is finding a technique that shows promise and refine it.  After many many thousands of bullets, we all still find tiny changes that can make big differences in what would seem a common routine.
There are some youtube videos that show the basic routine but there are so many variables that can change a bullet, you have to learn them all.
Basics that will change a bullet;
1 Melt Temp
2 Mold Temp
3 Mix i.e 16/1 25/1 etc.
4 Weather
5 Mold condition
6 Pouring time
7 Ladle pressure on sprue plate
8 Length of time of cycle for pouring a bullet
9 Sprue plate tension
10 Pouring 'technique'
And on and on and on.  The causes of change can seem endless sometimes.
Those of us that have poured many bullets sometimes forget the time we have spent refining 'our' method, as well as the minor change we subconsciously make as we pour.  It's all based on hours of experience and the only way to get that is cast and cast and cast some more.
Yes 1/2 a grain is very possible.  I sometimes on a good day can cast the first 3 or 4 and get into a rhythm and cast 60 that are within 2 tenths.
60 is my base for a number to cast.  That's about an hour +/-.  That's my limit to get good bullets.
Cast a lot.  Enjoy the time, it will become therapy and allow many hours to think about many things.
Enjoy   Wink
Cary
  
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