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Lyman 103 variations (Read 25117 times)

slumlord44 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2849 Location: Lebanon, Illinois 62254 Joined: Dec 21^st, 2007	Lyman 103 variations Mar 26^th, 2014 at 8:40pm	Print Post
	These two are both unmarked. Both have 1 1/2" hole spacing. The one on the left has a shorter staff and the base is physically smaller on the right. I fairly sure the one on the right is for a Stevens 44 or 44 1/2. The one on the left fits and has enough adjustment to work on the rifle it is on. Anyone know more about these? (You need to *Login* or *Register* to view media files and links)


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Redsetter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3468 Location: New York Joined: Aug 6^th, 2013	Re: Lyman 103 variations Reply #1 - Mar 26^th, 2014 at 9:04pm	Print Post
	The difference in adjustment between those two seems so extreme that I wonder if one is some special purpose sight. I've got one intermediate, I think, in height between those two, marked B; barrel, including collar with graduations, measures 24/32".


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Quarter_Bore Oldtimer Offline Posts: 817 Location: Joined: Dec 16^th, 2005	Re: Lyman 103 variations Reply #2 - Mar 26^th, 2014 at 9:30pm	Print Post
	What are the letters under the base? Sometimes people would cut down Winchester 103 sights for Stevens. Seems insane now but not everyone is a rocket scientist.


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slumlord44 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2849 Location: Lebanon, Illinois 62254 Joined: Dec 21^st, 2007	Re: Lyman 103 variations Reply #3 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:14am	Print Post
	Both are unmarked. The base is also noticeably smaller length and widthwise. The smaller one looks a lot like the 144 that is used on the Stevens 418 Walnut Hill but that one does not have the locking lever. These both do. I have 2 144's and it is not a 144. I get the different staff length for different applications but the size of the base has me buffaloed.


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BP Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 8039 Location: Westside Joined: Aug 27^th, 2006	Re: Lyman 103 variations Reply #4 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 4:37am	Print Post
	slumlord44, If you will post a good decimal measurement in hundredths of an inch for the sight shown on the righthand side of your picture, using a good caliper to measure from the bottom of the graduated dial to the top of the barrel retaining cap, I will see if it matches one of my sights. It will probably be a few days before I can make the comparison though. The sight on the lefthand side of your photo has me wondering...

	There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves. Proud Noodlehead
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RayH Oldtimer Offline ASSRA # 10880 Posts: 752 Location: Oldest City, FL Joined: Jan 4^th, 2012	Re: Lyman 103 variations Reply #5 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 10:39am	Print Post
	From my Stevens Armory Model 414: (has locking lever), Barrel length incl. collar w. graduations = 1.147 Base O.A.L. = 1.963 Base width = .510 Base mounting holes, center to center = 1.476 Aft end of base,marked on bottom (aft of mounting hole): P
	« Last Edit: Mar 27^th, 2014 at 10:49am by RayH »
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slumlord44 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2849 Location: Lebanon, Illinois 62254 Joined: Dec 21^st, 2007	Re: Lyman 103 variations Reply #6 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:02pm	Print Post
	BP, 1.025. Looked at it again. Found P under the rust. No marking on the one on the left. It is totally different than the 144 used only on the 417-418's. No lock on them. The one on the left is the oddball. Condition is like new. No marking on the bottom, no signs of the base having been shortened. Checked the width again and it is only .050 narrower. The other obvious difference is there is no graduated collar on the height adjustment. Manufacturing change? Mounting hole spacing fits my Stevens which is 1.5" Staff height would be about right for my 418 Walnut Hill or a Favorite. Does any other manufacturer use the 1.5" mounting hole spacing? Just looked through Stroebel's book and found nothing. Could have been made for the 418 or Favorite but the lack of a marked height adjustment confuses me unless it was a later manufacturing variation. I will be installing the 103 on the 44 1/2 that has the oddball sight on it now and hang on the oddball until I figure out what it really is. May use it on a 418 or Favorite but it would be over kill on a Favorite. I love a mystery but hate it when I can't figure it out! Just took another look and measured again because I was missing something. The front to back measurement where the main body of the sight meets the tang attachment part is over 1/10" smaller than the P marked one. Width is about .030 narrower. Got no idea what the heck it is. Marked Lyman. Looks like a 103 but different for sure.
	« Last Edit: Mar 27^th, 2014 at 2:57pm by slumlord44 »

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BP Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 8039 Location: Westside Joined: Aug 27^th, 2006	Re: Lyman 103 variations Reply #7 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 3:59pm	Print Post
	slumlord44, I have and use the Lyman 144 sights, and Lyman produced the 144 sight for the Stevens company. Have never encountered literature that Lyman ever marketed the 144 sight themselves to the general public, but Stevens may have done so separate from their rifles, and also as inventory cleanup after production of the Stevens rifles that used the 144 sight ceased. The 144 windage design does not share the same windage design used with the 103. The windage parts don't interchange between the 144 and the 103. Both sights in your pic have 103 bases, and Lyman did have production changes in the 103, including bases (and not just for different mounting screw distances). You've found the P code for the 103 sight shown on the right side of your picture, which is in range with the measurement given by OkeyMaple. The 103 sight base on the left of your picture looks correct, but it is the staff assembly that is raising the red flag... and remembering that the 103 is approaching the century mark since its introduction, have you considered that some previous owner may have pulled the original 103 elevation staff assembly out of your unidentified 103 base, and replaced it with a staff assembly from a Lyman 2A sight? One more note... the 103 sight for the Marlins used the same base as for Stevens. The 103 base design prevented using the shorter Marlin screw spacing, so if you wanted to install a 103 on a Marlin, you had to drill an extra hole in the rifle to install the sight on it. But the 103s for the Marlins had different staff heights than the 103s for the Stevens.

	There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves. Proud Noodlehead
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Redsetter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3468 Location: New York Joined: Aug 6^th, 2013	Re: Lyman 103 variations Reply #8 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 6:03pm	Print Post
	slumlord44 wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 1:02pm: I love a mystery... Really? Then please tell me why I've got one marked B, when P & F are the only Stevens 103 variants listed in Lyman's chart. In fact, I couldn't find any 103 with a B code.


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BP Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 8039 Location: Westside Joined: Aug 27^th, 2006	Re: Lyman 103 variations Reply #9 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 6:47pm	Print Post
	Redsetter, You've said your B code 103 staff height is 24/32". At 0.750", your B code is shorter in height than the P code 103 used for the Stevens. How does your B code compare with the F code 103 staff height?

	There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves. Proud Noodlehead
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slumlord44 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2849 Location: Lebanon, Illinois 62254 Joined: Dec 21^st, 2007	Re: Lyman 103 variations Reply #10 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 8:18pm	Print Post
	B should be Marlin 1892, Ballard, or Hopkins and Allen. I know the 144 is totally different and stated that earlier. The staff assembly could certainly have been switched and that makes sense. The fact that the oddball is physically smaller does not make sense to me but could definitely be a production change. The oddball has an 1816 patent date on the base and is marked Lyman. The one on the right has no patent date, no Lyman marking, but is stamped P on the bottom. Just trying to figure out the puzzle. Anybody got a spare staff for a 103?


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Redsetter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3468 Location: New York Joined: Aug 6^th, 2013	Re: Lyman 103 variations Reply #11 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 8:45pm	Print Post
	slumlord44 wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 8:18pm: B should be Marlin 1892, Ballard, or Hopkins and Allen. That's for #1 & 2 tang sights, not 103s; only 103 listed for Marlin is code H. Anyway, hole spacing is 1-1/2". I think it's been mismarked--no other conclusion seems possible. Don't know how stem height compares to the F sight.


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Redsetter Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 3468 Location: New York Joined: Aug 6^th, 2013	Re: Lyman 103 variations Reply #12 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 9:00pm	Print Post
	slumlord44 wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 8:18pm: The oddball has an 1816 patent date on the base and is marked Lyman. It is odd if it has a pat. date--haven't seen another so marked. Don't see that 144 sight listed in any of my Lyman catalogs.


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BP Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 8039 Location: Westside Joined: Aug 27^th, 2006	Re: Lyman 103 variations Reply #13 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 10:12pm	Print Post
	Redsetter wrote Quote: slumlord44 wrote Today at 5:18pm: B should be Marlin 1892, Ballard, or Hopkins and Allen. That's for #1 & 2 tang sights, not 103s; only 103 listed for Marlin is code H. Anyway, hole spacing is 1-1/2". I think it's been mismarked--no other conclusion seems possible. Don't know how stem height compares to the F sight. Redsetter, Did Lyman use the same DA code assigned to the WRA model 1894 on the Lyman 103 sight, as well as on the Lyman 1, 1A, 2, and 2A sights?

	There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves. Proud Noodlehead
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slumlord44 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2849 Location: Lebanon, Illinois 62254 Joined: Dec 21^st, 2007	Re: Lyman 103 variations Reply #14 - Mar 27^th, 2014 at 10:46pm	Print Post
	According to Stroebel's book they do but he could definitely be wrong. The Lyman 144 sight was only made specifically for the Stevens 417's and 418's. It may not have been offered in their catalog's. Stem height on the F for the Favorite would be shorter due to the smaller frame on the Favorite. I have seen patent dates on some other Lyman's.


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