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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Enfield Martini question (Read 16912 times)
Bulseyetom
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Enfield Martini question
Mar 4th, 2014 at 8:16pm
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How do you tell if an Enfield Martini is an antique or a modern rifle by ffl standards?  Thanks.  Tom
  
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Schuetzendave
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Re: Enfield Martini question
Reply #1 - Mar 5th, 2014 at 10:56am
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"The term 'antique firearm' means - 
•(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and 
•(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica - 
•(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or 
•(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade."

My interpretation is many Enfield Martini rifles were converted to .303 British (conventional centerfire ammunition which is readily available) and would not be an "Antique". However the .577-450 chambered Lee Enfields would still be an "Antique".

Need a FFL to confirm this interpretation.
« Last Edit: Mar 5th, 2014 at 11:04am by Schuetzendave »  
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Bulseyetom
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Re: Enfield Martini question
Reply #2 - Mar 5th, 2014 at 4:57pm
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What years were the Enfield Martini's made?  If they were all made in or before 1898 would that not constitute an antique?  I assume the BSA Martini's are much newer.  Thanks.  Tom
  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Enfield Martini question
Reply #3 - Mar 8th, 2014 at 6:22pm
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my understanding is that even if the rifle is old enough, say an original year of production Win '94, or early '85, but chambered for a .30-30---even as BP cartridges-----It STILL can be shot with modern .30-30 ammo. so modern FFL rifle rules would apply
  

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graduated peep
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Re: Enfield Martini question
Reply #4 - Mar 9th, 2014 at 6:51am
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All the of the preceding comments are accurate, but you didn't mention what models or calibers, so I wanted to add some info peculiar to these rifles because of there association with the middle east countries.
You are probably seeing various versions on the internet with all sorts of descriptions and markings that can be confusing.
To begin with,  quite a few are BOGUS mid eastern copies. Some were re-worked in the early 20th century and so marked. I.E. "CITADEL 1901" or whatever.
Authentic UK made Martinis will have the royal cypher of Queen Victoria, the factory of origin, and the date of manufacture stamped on the RH side of the receiver.
They could have been made by B.S.A., Enfield,  L.S.A., and perhaps other subcontractors.
I believe most original  Martinis were all made well before 1898.
Judging from their scarcity, not many were sent back to the arsenals at the end of the 19th century to be re-fitted with .303 barrels. Of the ones I've seen, they were stamped on the LH side of the receiver in similar fashion as the RH, but with the .303 caliber designation added as well as the "reman" date ; and that could be anywhere from possibly 1896 to perhaps 1901.I have only seen 1898 and 1899 myself.
So, I would say most of the dated Martinis are antiques.But technically, .303's may be considered modern because of ammo availability regardless of the date.
To avoid fakes,you really have to study AUTHENTIC Martinis to judge the markings on specimens offered for sale.
Queen Victoria died around 1899, so any rifles built at the arsenals after that date would have her successor's cypher.That amounts to a different style crown and some other details and later dates. Luckily, most fakers are not historians, so you will see dates as late as 1914 stamped on a gun with a crude Queen Victoria cypher.
Bottom line, I'd be more worried about buying junk than an antique !! Wink
« Last Edit: Mar 13th, 2014 at 1:05pm by »  
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desert-dude
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Re: Enfield Martini question
Reply #5 - Mar 9th, 2014 at 3:03pm
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Eh?

Elizabeth I      1558-1603

Victoria      1837-1901

Edward VII      
1901-1910

A slip of the monarch?
  
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Bad_Ass_Wallace
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Re: Enfield Martini question
Reply #6 - Mar 9th, 2014 at 4:55pm
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The last conversions to 303 were in 1901 and almost all carry the cypher "VR" Victoria Regina. I have a late manufacture Martini Henry 577/450 made in 1896 (HRB & Co.) and converted in the same year to 303 at the Royal Enfield arsenal!

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For a 100+ year old rifle it still groups well with cast bullets

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harry_eales
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Re: Enfield Martini question
Reply #7 - Mar 10th, 2014 at 10:14am
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Hello GP,

I believe your getting the British Monarchs slightly mixed up. Queen Victoria (VR) was on the British Throne during the whole period that the .577/450 Martini-Henry Service Rifle was manufactured. It may just be possible that some original rifles were converted to .303 British after she passed away in 1901. By then the 303 British rounds had been in service since 1888. Interestingly some of these Martini-Henry rifles were still on issue during WW1 in England with specially made Anti Zeppelin incendiary ammunition developed by the Brocks Fireworks factory. I don't think anyone was successful in shooting one down, those that were brought down were usually by .303 Buckingham explosive ammo and tracer rounds fired from home defence aircraft. However there are a lot of Khyber Pass copies and some numbers of Nepalese copies about so, Caveat Emptor. The first Elizabeth died in the 16th.C., and the second Elizabeth didn't become queen until 1953. Both well outside the production years for this rifle.

Harry
  
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Singleshotlover
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Re: Enfield Martini question
Reply #8 - Mar 11th, 2014 at 12:27am
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OK, gonna throw this one out so don't flame the old guy. Consider for a moment the 1888 German commission rifle. Almost everyone has the date of manufacture stamped on the receiver ring. The serial number of each one is also stamped on the receiver. Most if not all of them were made prior to 1/1/99. Therefore they are legally antiques. As far as I know any rifles made after 1/1/99 are not considered antiques and the form 4473 has to be filled out. And where do they get the serial number??, right on the receiver. And as far as I know the receiver is actually the gun. And most martini's that we  are talking about also have the serial number and date of manufacture on the receiver. Now you could say I'm comparing apples to oranges and you could be right. So what to do when a guy gets lets say a 1888 dated martini and makes a 45/70 out of it??. And that is a fairly common conversion. Does that now make it a modern rifle?. How about a 50/70?. Frank
  
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Bad_Ass_Wallace
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Re: Enfield Martini question
Reply #9 - Mar 11th, 2014 at 8:08pm
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Not sure of your rules over in USA but down under, if you shoot the rifle even though the ammunition is obsolete, it must have a license. The reason I mentioned that is I understand our draconian laws were taken from some of the worst ones that you had to endure.

Point in fact, I have a Henrys Patent 442 Rook for which I made ammunition from shortened and expanded 44 Mag brass - yes, it is required to be licensed.
  

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graduated peep
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Re: Enfield Martini question
Reply #10 - Mar 13th, 2014 at 1:02pm
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Quote:
Hello GP,

I believe your getting the British Monarchs slightly mixed up. Queen Victoria (VR) was on the British Throne during the whole period that the .577/450 Martini-Henry Service Rifle was manufactured. It may just be possible that some original rifles were converted to .303 British after she passed away in 1901. By then the 303 British rounds had been in service since 1888. Interestingly some of these Martini-Henry rifles were still on issue during WW1 in England with specially made Anti Zeppelin incendiary ammunition developed by the Brocks Fireworks factory. I don't think anyone was successful in shooting one down, those that were brought down were usually by .303 Buckingham explosive ammo and tracer rounds fired from home defence aircraft. However there are a lot of Khyber Pass copies and some numbers of Nepalese copies about so, Caveat Emptor. The first Elizabeth died in the 16th.C., and the second Elizabeth didn't become queen until 1953. Both well outside the production years for this rifle.

Harry

Harry et al, 
I was err, ehhh, ummm seeing if you guys were sleeping !! Yeah that's it, it was a test to see if anyone was actually paying attention; and you've all passed with flying colors.
My previous post has been amended. Embarrassed
  
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graduated peep
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Re: Enfield Martini question
Reply #11 - Mar 13th, 2014 at 1:08pm
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Bad_Ass_Wallace wrote on Mar 9th, 2014 at 4:55pm:
The last conversions to 303 were in 1901 and almost all carry the cypher "VR" Victoria Regina. I have a late manufacture Martini Henry 577/450 made in 1896 (HRB & Co.) and converted in the same year to 303 at the Royal Enfield arsenal!

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

For a 100+ year old rifle it still groups well with cast bullets

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

Judging from the groups, your rifle's bore must be in decent shape ???
A lot of the .303's I've encountered have dark bores from the corrosive ammo.
  
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harry_eales
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Re: Enfield Martini question
Reply #12 - Mar 13th, 2014 at 3:57pm
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[/quote-Harry et al, 
I was err, ehhh, ummm seeing if you guys were sleeping !! Yeah that's it, it was a test to see if anyone was actually paying attention; and you've all passed with flying colors.
My previous post has been amended. Embarrassed[/unquote]

GP,
You weren't a Snake Oil salesman in a past life were you? Just joking my friend. lol.  Roll Eyes

Harry
« Last Edit: Mar 13th, 2014 at 4:03pm by »  
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graduated peep
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Re: Enfield Martini question
Reply #13 - Mar 13th, 2014 at 4:29pm
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Harry,
My previous boss thought I should have pursued a career as a politician or a priest.
I settled on being a self employed machinist; which still sometimes requires the skills of the above mentioned  avocations  Wink

Now back to Martinis !!
I "borrowed" a couple of photos that I thought would be interesting and add to the conversation.
They are both taken of the same gun. One shot shows the LH marking when it was remanufactured, and the other photo shows a stamping I've never seen before.
If this gun is "not for ball" ammunition, what then would it be for ??
It appears to be a fairly typical .303 otherwise.
I do love all the markings these guns have, and the detective work to decipher what they mean.
I believe the "E" on the barrel stands for Enfield style rifling ??
As well as the "M.E." on the side. Metford style rifling would be "M.M.' would it not ??
Also, the two broad arrows stamped facing each other mean "sold out of service" or perhaps "decommissioned" ?????
I don't see Queen Elizabeth's royal cypher on this one  Grin
« Last Edit: Mar 13th, 2014 at 4:34pm by »  
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Lefty38-55
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Re: Enfield Martini question
Reply #14 - Mar 13th, 2014 at 4:44pm
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Re: The 'ball' marking ... is it possible it has shallow rifling for cast bullets?
  

All of my single shots shoot one tiny ragged hole with cast bullets ... it's just the following shots that tend to open up my groups Wink ...
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