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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) paper patching questions (Read 15884 times)
Longdistance1
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Re: paper patching questions
Reply #15 - Mar 3rd, 2014 at 1:51am
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I tried paper patching once only I didn't use paper I used Teflon pipe tape 1 inch wide and about 5 wraps to get the T. Ballard 550 gr .446 bullet to .456 which is my groove dia. I loaded up 20 rnds and went out to my 700 yd gong took about 5 shots to get on as I was shooting 3 feet higher than my normal load with a Lyman 535 gr Postel, same powder charge. 15 hits in a row nice group could have covered with a paper plate.  I went home cast up 100 bullets, prepped caseswithprimers,powder,tp wads, & started wrapping bullets,finished a 3 am, left for the Quigley @ 6am, got there and couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. I discovered that I had wraped the bullets the wrong way and the tape was unwrapping in the bbl. I was so pissed at myself I didn't try it again.
  
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Mick B
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Re: paper patching questions
Reply #16 - Mar 3rd, 2014 at 6:06am
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In answer to a couple of previous questions I do put a thin paper wad in the case over the flash hole, also I wipe the rifle between shots, one damp patch using both sides followed by one pass with a dry patch. The dry patch then is damped with a mixture of machine cutting oil and water and used for the next wipe. I have contacted a guy in the states who makes a sizing die that will reduce the .446" BACO bullet to .444", at the moment he seems to believe that exporting such a die to Australia may be against US regulations and is looking into it. Lee Precision used to make custom bullet sizing dies but at the moment they are not doing any owing to heavy workloads. I have two of the Lee sizing dies for use with my GG bullets and Lee didn't seem to have a problem shipping them to me. Perhaps the rules have changed.
As for my bench rest experience I have been shooting for 55 years and while I'm ashamed to admit it I started by using smokeless till, I saw the light. Nearly all of my shooting now is done off the bench. I'm lucky in that I live four minutes from an excellent rifle range and being retired get to shoot four or five days a week weather permitting. As the weather here is near perfect most of the time that adds up to a lot of shooting. To give you and idea of our winter in Canberra minus 9c was the coldest winter day ever recorded, and Canberra has the coldest winters of any capital city in Australia.
Mike.
  
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SchwarzStock
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Re: paper patching questions
Reply #17 - Mar 3rd, 2014 at 11:17am
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I have found that it is very important with PPBs that the cases be annealed fairly frequently to ensure a uniform release of the bullet. I think this is even more important with PPBs than with regular GGBs. I have also given up with Wano, no one in Europe uses it for any serious shooting, cannons and signal guns only. There are some US companies importing Wano and renaming it so check the labels on cannisters before purchasing it...

Loading PPBs for 45-110 I generally use a grease cookie of 0.300 with the bullet seated 1/4inch into the case. My wrapped bullets are 0.450 (bore diameter) and lubed with the same lubricant (usually my homemade stuff using beeswax and lard) I use for the cookie. There is a wad (milk carton) on the powder column then the cookie, then another wad and then a slip of wax paper under the bullet. In moderate temperature areas (using Swiss 1.5) I have been able to fire up to 20rds before swabbing with a spit-patch. In High temp areas I sometime resort to a duplex of 5744 and BP to control fouling and prevent having to swab between shots.

SS
  

If your rifle is not in 7.62 and you can't hit what you are aiming at with de-linked machinegun ammo you are a pretender.
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gunlaker
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Re: paper patching questions
Reply #18 - Mar 3rd, 2014 at 11:23am
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Bore diameter bullets can shoot very well with black powder.  As RSW says, they'll bump up to groove diameter.  I recently bought an 1885 Winchester in 38-50 Remington Hepburn and with zero load development it put 8 shots at 200m into 1.4" of vertical and 2.25" horizontal.  If it weren't for one wide flyer, it would have been 1.8" wide.  

Mick, I'd seriously consider getting a roll or two of Selth Cole 8 lb paper.  I was advised to use that paper by Kenny Wasserburger and I've never looked back after that.  It will put that bullet at exactly the diameter you want.  You can order the paper over the Internet.  They list it as sketch paper and their number for it is 55W.

When I first got into paper patching I went through several weeks of terrible accuracy.  Dean Becker (powderburner on the Shiloh site) advised me to change my wad stack to a fibre wad, 1/8th inch lube cookie, and another fibre wad.   Seat the BACO bullet no more than .125" in the case.  After making that switch it was like night and day.  I know that most guys will say that lube cookies should not be used when searching of maximum accuracy with paper patched loads.  Perhaps this is so, but in chambers designed for grease groove bullets it works very well.  There are a number of folks who shoot quite well this way.  Maybe consider signing up on the Historic Shooting Forums and spend some time talking to Kurt, Kenny, Rick Mulhern, and Don.  They have. Lot of experience with this stuff.  I've learned a lot from them.

Chris.
  
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Mick B
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Re: paper patching questions
Reply #19 - Mar 3rd, 2014 at 8:33pm
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Gunlaker
that all sounds like good advice to me, question, where do I get the paper you mention ?. I'm still waiting for the sizing die guy to get back to me regarding export problems from the US.
I would appreciate the internet address of the forum you mentioned concerning paper patching. I'm trying to avoid re inventing the wheel here.
Greatly appreciate all the help I'm getting.
Mike.
  
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gunlaker
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Re: paper patching questions
Reply #20 - Mar 3rd, 2014 at 11:13pm
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Mick B wrote on Mar 3rd, 2014 at 8:33pm:
Gunlaker
that all sounds like good advice to me, question, where do I get the paper you mention ?. I'm still waiting for the sizing die guy to get back to me regarding export problems from the US.
I would appreciate the internet address of the forum you mentioned concerning paper patching. I'm trying to avoid re inventing the wheel here.
Greatly appreciate all the help I'm getting.
Mike.


There seem to be a number of places on the Internet that sell it.  I bought my first rolls on EBay and then a few more from an Internet supplier in the USA.  I'm in Canada so know your pain when it comes to importing stuff.

Here is a link to one supplier.  
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Edit: be careful, the one you want is the white 55w, not any of the others, although Rick Mulhern posted bout good results with the even thinner yellow paper.

The paper is a bit more fragile than the 9lb paper that many use so you have to be careful not to tear it when wrapping, but it does work well.

Chris.


  
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nuclearcricket
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Re: paper patching questions
Reply #21 - Mar 3rd, 2014 at 11:14pm
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Maybe consider signing up on the Historic Shooting Forums and spend some time talking to Kurt, Kenny, Rick Mulhern, and Don.

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Mick B
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Re: paper patching questions
Reply #22 - Mar 4th, 2014 at 7:54am
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Ordered the Seth Cole paper and also signed on to the historic arms site where there was an interesting thread going on paper patching. Seems like I'm not  the only one interested in trying it out.
Thanks for all the info.
Mike.
  
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Mick B
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Re: paper patching questions
Reply #23 - Mar 5th, 2014 at 7:57am
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I dug out a couple of the targets I shot a while ago with the PP BACO bullet. The best target was 2.420" at 100 meters.
The group was 2.4" high with a lateral dispersion of 1.5" approximately. My notes on the target say the bullet weighed 540 gr and was pure lead. The bullet was breech seated just ahead of a full case of Wano PP ( 80gr ) topped with a .060" LDPE wad. I would have wiped the rifle between shots as is my habit. Conditions on the day were a moderate breeze from 6 o'clock that was variable.
When the new patching paper arrives I will start again, with luck the sizing die may make it as well.
I also bought some Jojoba oil so I can make some lube cookies, 4 oz's cost me A$29.00, I think they saw me coming, it is however described as Organic Jojoba Oil, guess it must be good. I believe it's possible to mix it with SPG to make cookies that work OK.
Mike.
  
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RSW
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Re: paper patching questions
Reply #24 - Mar 5th, 2014 at 12:21pm
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MickB
I suggest you consider try a bullet alloy a bit harder than pure lead. 1:20 (tin:lead) is a good place to start and is a lot less subject to nose slumping when fired. Pure lead is too putty-like by comparison and tends to have considerable nose slumping unless using a very short, blunt nose bullet.
Back a couple of years ago, Dan T posted his findings on bullet nose slump using various alloys and firing into a soft snow bank which allowed bullets to be recovered virtually undamaged by impact. The comparisons of nose slump of the various alloys tested was dramatic.
  

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gunlaker
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Re: paper patching questions
Reply #25 - Mar 5th, 2014 at 3:29pm
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Kurt also has many photos of bullets recovered from shooting in snow banks.   I believe that some have been posted here.

The softest alloy I've heard of being used for the PP was 30 or 40 to 1 by Rick Mulhern.  He is a far more accomplished shooter than I and I've seen photos of his impressive long range groups.  However, he is the only one I've heard using such soft alloy for that bullet.   As far as I can tell, most people use either 20:1 or 16:1 for the reasons that RSW states. 

The photos I've seen made 20:1 seem like a wise starting place.   I've started playing with 16:1 but am not at all sure that there is a difference from 20:1. 

Chris.
  
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Mick B
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Re: paper patching questions
Reply #26 - Mar 6th, 2014 at 5:55am
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Thanks for all the info, I have plenty of 20-1 alloy as it's what I use in all my bullets for the 45/70, 45/90 and the 38/56. My reason for using pure lead with the PP bullet was because with a diameter of .451" I thought it might be a big ask for the bullet to bump up to a groove diameter of .458". 
At the moment I'm on a pretty steep learning curve concerning paper patching, when the new paper arrives and also the sizing die I can really get stuck into it properly.
Mike.
  
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Mick B
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Re: paper patching questions
Reply #27 - Mar 6th, 2014 at 5:41pm
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Just got an email from the arts supply place that my order of the patching paper is ready for sending. The cost of the paper was 8 bucks, postage is $52.00, the post office sure don't miss you do they. 
Mike.
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: paper patching questions
Reply #28 - Mar 9th, 2014 at 3:18am
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Mike,

Just take your calipers to any paper supply shop and start measuring the papers around.  Specialist shops by preference, and I'm pretty sure you will be able to find something decent without paying silly prices for shipping...
  
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Mick B
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Re: paper patching questions
Reply #29 - Mar 9th, 2014 at 7:15pm
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Too late, I still have about 90 sheets of the 9 lb onion skin paper I got from BACO and the Seth Cole paper has been dispatched already. As things stand I should have enough paper to last me for years. 
Mike.
  
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