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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) COMPENSATING FOR WIND DRIFT (Read 22873 times)
ledball
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Re: COMPENSATING FOR WIND DRIFT
Reply #30 - Feb 28th, 2014 at 9:08am
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I remember years ago,Etna Green I think, some shooters had a bunch of smudge-pots set up to the 200yd line. I was amazed at the movement the smoke showed, it did not move in any sort of normal pattern. NO wonder I don't shoot any better than I do with these images in my mind.  Ledball
  
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joeb33050
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Re: COMPENSATING FOR WIND DRIFT
Reply #31 - Feb 28th, 2014 at 10:16am
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Quote:
The surface of the Earth exerts a frictional drag on the air blowing just above it. This friction can act to change the wind's direction and slow it down -- keeping it from blowing as fast as the wind aloft. Actually, the difference in terrain conditions directly affects how much friction is exerted. For example, a calm ocean surface is pretty smooth, so the wind blowing over it does not move up, down, and around any features. By contrast, hills and forests force the wind to slow down and/or change direction much more.

I'm impressed, Keith. Lots of information. However, is BP right or wrong? Here's what he wrote:
"As long as this big globe we are all on continues to rotate, there will be drag of the atmosphere's lower boundary layer with the terrain that creates turbulence ... and wind."
  
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JLouis
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Re: COMPENSATING FOR WIND DRIFT
Reply #32 - Feb 28th, 2014 at 2:54pm
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I beleave wind flows in layers just as water in a river does. The layer being shown by ones wind indicators is not nessicarily the one the bullet sees on it's flight to the target and it may pass through several due to the rise of the trajectory being typically quite a bit higher than the placement of the wind flags.

JLouis
  

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boats
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Re: COMPENSATING FOR WIND DRIFT
Reply #33 - Feb 28th, 2014 at 3:51pm
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John I agree with you what it's doing at one elevation may not be doing at another, one side of the range or the other. At the firing line or at the target.. It not only changing but hard to read without instruments.

Years ago I worked for the Coast Survey, one of the things we did was establish and read tide and current meters.  Water level could be falling while the tide was coming in. Moving in on the surface while out down deeper was the culprit.  Once things got going with some velolicty current settled down to fairly consistent. Around the time of the change from high to low or low to high was the most inconstant

Wind is the same way, get a defined system strong one direction it's much more predictable than when one system is dying off and another coming in. 

I always look at the weather reports day before a match & make observations while shooting. Next day compare my observations with the official government reports near as possible to the range.  Data is wonderful today easy to access and accurate.  Gives you feedback on the accuracy of your observations. 

Still best way to see what the effect of wind is, bullet on the sighter target. Nothing is as accurate as actual shots falling

Boats

  
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JLouis
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Re: COMPENSATING FOR WIND DRIFT
Reply #34 - Feb 28th, 2014 at 4:09pm
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It is very typical at our range to see the flags showing a nine o'clock wind approx. three ft. off the ground and the mirage on top of the backer frame approx. 5 ft. off the ground showing a strong 3 o'clock wind. Our range is all sand and in the morning we get allot of heat starting rise off of it and in itself creates a whole different approach to what exactly is taking place as the flags don't and won't show it. The only way to figure it out is a tremendous amount of range time, you won't find it in a book nor will you find in these discussions it is hard earned.

JLouis
  

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JackHughs
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Re: COMPENSATING FOR WIND DRIFT
Reply #35 - Feb 28th, 2014 at 4:42pm
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There are a number of mathematical tools to estimate wind speed at different elevations if you know the wind speed at a reference elevation.

The following graph was lifted from a triathlon forum and shows wind speed vs. elevation for a reference wind speed of 20 mph at 10 meters. 

The graph stops at one meter elevation - which is the important elevation for bicyclists and isn't far off from the height of a normal wind indicator.

The curve can be easily extended for greater elevations and, if extended, would show that the wind speed at the path of bullet is greater than the indicated wind speed at the height of the indicator.   

Nonetheless, the fact that wind speed at the indicator is less than wind speed at the bullet's path does not invalidate the indicator readings because we take sighters to determine proper hold-off based on the indicator rather than actual wind speed.

What the graph does tell us is that the effect of wind on the projectile's flight is likely greater than we would assume from the indicator (or from a wind gauge reading at the same height as the indicator).

So, just because an indicator is not moving, it doesn't necessary follow that the air isn't moving in the bullet's path.

JackHughs
  

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Are full of passionate intensity.  W.B. Yeats
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boats
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Re: COMPENSATING FOR WIND DRIFT
Reply #36 - Feb 28th, 2014 at 4:55pm
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Jack it's like piloting a ship and compensating for current.  You can figure it out with calculations and supplied data like the Goverment current charts, but best way is to take a fix then another and compare the drift off course over a known distance. Then extend the off over the planned course. Same thing as our sighter target

Do have to re-take the observations though cause it changes. Same thing as going back to the sighter to re-confirm drift

Boats
  
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BP
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Re: COMPENSATING FOR WIND DRIFT
Reply #37 - Feb 28th, 2014 at 5:10pm
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If anyone has obtained aviation weather for a particular airfield, they know that winds at the surface vary in direction and magnitude from the winds aloft, and winds aloft vary at differing elevations, with mixing between layers.
The jet stream is called a stream for good reason, and weather uses many of the same descriptors such as troughs, ridges, depressions, etc, just as landforms (both continental and oceanic) have troughs, ridges, depressions, etc, which affect the flow of the respective overlying fluids.
As Boats mentioned, distant conditions affect local conditions.
Winds aloft over two distant airfields may be quite similar, but winds at the surface may be different because of the respective local terrain conditions.
Airfoils are considered to be relatively smooth surfaces (excluding rivets, stitching, taping, other imperfections, etc) but depending on the amount of camber (curvature) of the upper and lower surfaces (which often differ), for given velocities, flow over the surfaces may be laminar, or (as airspeed and angle of attack change) flow may separate from the surfaces creating turbulence, vortices, drag.
Local landforms vary in the amount of curvature and surface roughness, height, orientation to oncoming wind, angle of slopes, etc, which affect localized airflow.
Surface roughness will vary by vegetation type as well.
I'd love to see joeb post a simple list of all the variables that affect airflow, before the variables were entered into any spreadsheet.

joeb wrote Quote:
The ELEY and LAPUA tunnels are doing it wrong! Also, the entire warehouse business is incorrect! Fill in them tunnels, tear down them warehouses, get out in the wind!
(There are more noodles visible than I've ever imagined.)

joeb,
Don’t those tunnels have ventilation?
Doesn’t ventilation require airflow?
Have you ever considered taking a geomorphology class, and maybe an aviation weather class too?

  

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Re: COMPENSATING FOR WIND DRIFT
Reply #38 - Feb 28th, 2014 at 5:25pm
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JLouis wrote on Feb 28th, 2014 at 4:09pm:
It is very typical at our range to see the flags showing a nine o'clock wind approx. three ft. off the ground and the mirage on top of the backer frame approx. 5 ft. off the ground showing a strong 3 o'clock wind. Our range is all sand and in the morning we get allot of heat starting rise off of it and in itself creates a whole different approach to what exactly is taking place as the flags don't and won't show it. The only way to figure it out is a tremendous amount of range time, you won't find it in a book nor will you find in these discussions it is hard earned.

JLouis

Sure you'll find it in a book. The wind, in all of its variations, is primarily a lateral force. Lest we forget, the ground, grass, trees, etc. are constantly heating and cooling, creating thermals as well. Lots of experience shooting outdoors is needed to determine which of these options represent the PREVAILING atmospheric condition, often a combination of all the above.
  

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JLouis
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Re: COMPENSATING FOR WIND DRIFT
Reply #39 - Feb 28th, 2014 at 5:38pm
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Tim maybe I wasn't clear in that I was talking about learning how to shoot the various conditions.

JLouis
  

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frnkeore
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Re: COMPENSATING FOR WIND DRIFT
Reply #40 - Feb 28th, 2014 at 6:36pm
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It is a very complicated skill, and shooting at matches, at as many different shooting ranges as possible will also help your doping skills. If you shoot at one range all the time and then go to another range at a different elevation, different surroundings and a different temperature, it can effect your scores untill you learn that range.

Something that's not been addressed, that goes along with wind doping is light angle and brightness. A light change can make the target appear to be in a different place than it actually is, similar to mirage but, much slower. If your holding for a wind condition and the light changes, the impact will also change. 

Many things to consider!

Frank

  

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Re: COMPENSATING FOR WIND DRIFT
Reply #41 - Feb 28th, 2014 at 7:12pm
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JLouis wrote on Feb 28th, 2014 at 5:38pm:
Tim maybe I wasn't clear in that I was talking about learning how to shoot the various conditions.

JLouis


Well, if today was the first you've heard of thermals, as in another condition, you've got more learning to do.
The point, which you may have missed, is that it's another condition.
When present, often, the wind becomes your friend.
« Last Edit: Feb 28th, 2014 at 7:18pm by tim_s »  

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Re: COMPENSATING FOR WIND DRIFT
Reply #42 - Feb 28th, 2014 at 7:39pm
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Tim what is it you are trying to point out? I not only know all of the various conditions one can encounter I also know what it takes to shoot them. I was simply trying to point out some of those that had not been mentioned for the benefit of others.

JLouis
  

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Re: COMPENSATING FOR WIND DRIFT
Reply #43 - Feb 28th, 2014 at 7:57pm
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Frank I did not mention lighting as the subject was wind but now that you have mentioned a novice shooter could interpret an off shot due to lighting as a miss read in wind should he or she not know the differance. You are somewhat correct when visiting a new range as a good doper can quickly get a handle on it during practice. The exception being the Gremlins living in the creek at Emerald Empire in Springfield Oregon that reach up and flick your bullets as they pass by. The home range competitors  that I shot the CBA Nationals with were saying that even they cannot get a handle on that.

JLouis
« Last Edit: Feb 28th, 2014 at 8:06pm by JLouis »  

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Re: COMPENSATING FOR WIND DRIFT
Reply #44 - Feb 28th, 2014 at 7:58pm
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tim_s wrote on Feb 28th, 2014 at 7:12pm:
JLouis wrote on Feb 28th, 2014 at 5:38pm:
Tim maybe I wasn't clear in that I was talking about learning how to shoot the various conditions.

JLouis


Well, if today was the first you've heard of thermals, as in another condition, you've got more learning to do.
The point, which you may have missed, is that it's another condition.
When present, often, the wind becomes your friend.


Tim,

I believe you've missed John's point.  It's one thing to learn the underlying physics of wind conditions from books or other sources, it's quite another to learn how to interpret those conditions and compensate in real time.  John knows enough as useful about the physics; he knows enough about interpretation to consistently win matches in our consistently challenging local conditions.

JackHughs 

  

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Are full of passionate intensity.  W.B. Yeats
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