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Dales
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Accuracy level of stop ring bullets
Dec 7th, 2013 at 11:05am
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What kind of groups should I expect when shooting stop ring bullets in my 8.15x46r?
I have only tried one load so far (13.5 gr sr4759) with groups of 15/16 to 1 1/4 at 95yds (that's all I have in my back yard).
I used 2 alloys 15-1 and a hard mix of ww and lino.
The hard bullets shot best, I only tried this alloy because it was in my pot.
I do not have any softer alloys made up, but I have heard that they work best in these rifles. Can expect much better groups if I try softer bullets or a dif. load?

Dale
  
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Re: Accuracy level of stop ring bullets
Reply #1 - Dec 7th, 2013 at 12:14pm
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I think you are close to the limit expected with a stop ring. Many people shoot a lot worse. 

If you can shoot more groups in the 15/16 range than the 1 1/4, I think you'll be hard pressed to do better but, please don't stop trying, you may have a exceptional rifle. I'm sure a lot of people will want to know what bullet your shooting.

There are no bench rest matches for these rifles so, it's hard to get a real handle on what's above average.

Frank

  

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Re: Accuracy level of stop ring bullets
Reply #2 - Dec 7th, 2013 at 12:30pm
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The mould is from NOE. They only list the one stop ring.
It is a good fit in my rifle ,nose tight in throat and stop ring is tight in the area just a head of the case, I cut case to a length to push 1/2 of stop ring into the ball seat.
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Re: Accuracy level of stop ring bullets
Reply #3 - Dec 7th, 2013 at 1:53pm
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Dale, the groups you mention, coming from the German rifle you just purchased?  I agree with Frank, looking good so far.   

         Joe.
  

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Re: Accuracy level of stop ring bullets
Reply #4 - Dec 7th, 2013 at 6:48pm
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You CAN shoot "these rifles" in any ASSRA centerfire bench rest match----perfectly legally. Will they outshoot a dedicated full-race modern tech bench rest rifle.   Probably not.  That'd be like expecting a road racing sports car to compete against a top-fuel dragster in 1/4 mile elapsed time racing.  Can you imagine shooting a consistently top ranking bench rests shooter trying to use his bench rig in a 100 shot offhand match.
They ARE a little more difficult to shoot off the bench; after all their stocks were designed for offhand shootingl. 
if you were to replace the forend and buttstock with modern design bench rest wood and use modern design breach-seated bullets you just might be amazed at the accuracy.   
  All that said, with a properly designed and adjusted bench rest set up for the offhand stock; and quality loads using bullets that are designed to fit the specific chamber and throat; I believe they should be capable of better accuracy than their commonly-held reputation allows.
I'm personally convinced that the limiting factor has been the paucity of selection of stop-ring bullets for the wide range of basically custom built rifles we are trying to use them in.

Putting all 10 shots in the inch and a half 25 ring on a 200 yd ASSRA target requires roughly 3/4 MOA accuracy.  Keeping them in the 3-inch 24 ring requires about a 1 1/2 MOA accuracy.  Shooting all 23s (4 1/2") would be about 2 1/4 MOA I think.   
I'd like to think that with the right bullet,( yes a stop ring design) a well set up (and managed) 8.15mm offhand euro-schuetzen rifle should be capable of 2 or 2 1/2 MOA or possibly better.

Obviously I am talking about bench-rest accuracy here.
  

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Re: Accuracy level of stop ring bullets
Reply #5 - Dec 7th, 2013 at 7:02pm
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For what it is worth,  just comparing offhand to benchrest accuracy,   Jim Feren shot the ASSRA National Record; a 241/5c offhand for a 10 shot May match.     Now score does not translate directly to actual group size,  but if one assumes the group probably all inside the 24 ring----and there were some 25's and 24s or maybe a 23 or a 22 to total that 241. anyway you have a theoretical offhand "group" of possibly sub-MOA accuracy
« Last Edit: Dec 7th, 2013 at 10:17pm by QuestionableMaynard8130 »  

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Re: Accuracy level of stop ring bullets
Reply #6 - Dec 7th, 2013 at 8:40pm
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I just got this rifle and this is the first time I have tried a stop ring bullet. I did not know what to expect from this type of bullet. I had a German rifle years ago and shot it with a breach seated bullet and it would stay within 1.25 MOA.
It would seem that this possible with the stop ring which is a good thing as this is a martini action and hard to breach seat.
The barrel on this rifle has a male dovetail on the bottom near the muzzle which may be for bench shooting. I will try to mill a 3" plate for a barrel rest and try to find out how good a stop ring will shoot.
Has anyone tried a stop ring bullet in a 32-40?
  
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Re: Accuracy level of stop ring bullets
Reply #7 - Dec 7th, 2013 at 9:41pm
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These are the targets that I shot when I worked up the breech seated load for my rifle, long ago. I still use the .620, 13.0 gr load of 4227.

The bullet is 1.03 long, spitzer with a .313 body with a .316 base band.

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Re: Accuracy level of stop ring bullets
Reply #8 - Dec 7th, 2013 at 10:25pm
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Have tried the Zika stop ring bullets in one of my 32-40s. Didn't test from the bench, Seemed to be about the same accuracy as the Aydt and Stahl rifles.  Would have no problem using it in offhand matches. No loading at the bench. Oh dear, all this time............what to do?

Have shot some killer two hundred yard ten shot groups with my Stahl rifle from the bench. Always makes me wonder about all this special bench rest rifle talk.  My Hoch has similar drop in the stock yet I have no problems with it from the bench. When the wind don't blow, that is.

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Re: Accuracy level of stop ring bullets
Reply #9 - Dec 8th, 2013 at 12:50am
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Dales your rifle will only shoot up to the limitations you yourself place on it. Asking others what to expect from it will typicaly add a negative influence in regards to you setting those limitations. If a fellow says I can only get as an example 11/8 inch groups at a 100yds. and you take it to heart that same fellow might not be able to do any better with a modern bench rifle, he is simply a 11/8 inch group average shooter.

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Re: Accuracy level of stop ring bullets
Reply #10 - Dec 8th, 2013 at 12:49pm
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There are two main components of "accuracy" we are talking about here,   The mechanical set, rifle and all of its systems and parts, the cartridge including case.powder and the bullet itself; and the parts of the bench and rest- set up itself --- assuming you are talking about bench rest accuracy.  
Bullets are just one specific component in the whole overall accuracy composition.  A specific bullet design may be very accurate; if it is in the right case/chamber/bore with the right load/alloy/lube--assuming all the other aspects are functioning optimally. 
We often tend to think of a given bullet as "accurate" or "inaccurate" in and of itself. But that depends on so many other conditions that general consensus unless carefully quantified and qualified is not very valid. Some are popular because they are easier to develop accuracy with, in a general sense, than others.  this may or may not be valid is a different set of conditions.   Others, including the "stop ring" designs may have a lesser reputation because the conditions where they might shine are less commonly found on the modern rifle range

Then there is the various thing that make up the shooter, physically, mentally, and the talent and learned skills. this part is of major impact no matter which side of the game you are playing on,  offhand or bench

Some of us tend to focus our interest more on the hardware, some more on the shooter.   (I find it much more comfortable to blame my poor shots on the hardware than on myself  LOL)

Your personal expectations and accomplishment will depend on how all of these things work out--in the total combination.  it requires a balanced approach.
« Last Edit: Dec 8th, 2013 at 12:54pm by QuestionableMaynard8130 »  

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Re: Accuracy level of stop ring bullets
Reply #11 - Dec 8th, 2013 at 1:49pm
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My question was to the overall accuracy expected from stop ring bullets.  I wanted to know what is the best that can be expected  using a stop ring bullet. I was looking for info on what others have achieved. To compare with my results.
I am not an expert but have competed in modern bench rest and understand the basics of bench shooting.
I do not expect this rifle bullet combo to be a bench rest set up and am building a rifle for that.
If I can handle this (heavy for me) rifle I plan to use it for off hand comp. this summer.
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Re: Accuracy level of stop ring bullets
Reply #12 - Dec 8th, 2013 at 2:57pm
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Dale,
There are only about 12 - 15 people in the US that shoot these things in competiton.

At Raton this year, there were 6 shooters of which only 5 shot in the match. The year before there were 9. At the NW ISSA regional 2 years ago there were 6 shooters of which Joe (Westener) an I were 2 of them. This past year there was only 2 that shot (I couldn't go). So, the sample of shooters to draw on is very limited and your question of what to expect was a very valid one. It's really a wide open game but, because all the matches are OH, the results are ALWAYS in favor of the good OH shooters and not the rifles or their unique individule accuracy.

Most of these fine rifles are kept in safes and never taken to matches. Please keep posting your results especially if you can get to a 200 yard range to develope a load. You have a excellent start!!!

Frank
  

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Re: Accuracy level of stop ring bullets
Reply #13 - Dec 8th, 2013 at 6:34pm
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My intention this year is to shoot all my offhand matches, RF and CF, at EG with my Euro-schuetzens and I may well be trying them for bench work as well, once I get my benchrest system debugged a bit more.  
We have a few other guys who shoot the euro-style schuetzens (Tthough Steve Durren's is one he built from scratch, you'd never know is wasn't a "cross the water" rifle) There are a number of guys who have them and have shot them on occasion, but not many use SR bullets and most seem to have gravitated more to the American actioned schuetzens. 
(I'm seriously considering offering a prize this year, for the best 10 shot offhand score target shot with a traditional Euro-schuetzen style rifle after the end of shooting on Saturday nights----a 6-pack of good quality dark beer Wink

  If my pet theory's about the stop-rings pan out I'll be using them.  I'll be a long ways from competitive in CF so I'll be shooting for my own pleasure and amusement
  My decision on the 200 yard 22 rf bench rest will pretty much be ammo driven.
« Last Edit: Dec 8th, 2013 at 6:39pm by QuestionableMaynard8130 »  

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