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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Weighing bullets - process control (Read 47272 times)
Cat_Whisperer
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Re: Weighing bullets - process control
Reply #45 - Nov 24th, 2013 at 8:59am
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JLouis wrote on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 10:34pm:
I find your 10 grain variance by changing your hold closed pressure on your handles interesting. How much further past closed can one close their mould blocks? That subject in itself has always interested me as it I have found it to be impossible based on my experience. I can't help but think of it as how much open from fully closed would create a 10 grain variance while still not having lead flowing in between the mould halves? 

JLouis


I'll run a small side study within this next batch - every other bullet (for a short run) squeezing the mould handles tight vs normal pressure.  Tough to gauge just by feel - over a few hundred bullets.
  

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Re: Weighing bullets - process control
Reply #46 - Nov 24th, 2013 at 9:02am
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SSS -  I've got one of those.  SOMEDAY I'll hook it up!  (round tuit syndrome)

Big block - little block --> temperature stability.  Good of  you to note that.
  

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Re: Weighing bullets - process control
Reply #47 - Nov 24th, 2013 at 9:09am
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QuestionableMaynard8130 wrote on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 11:14pm:
would small temp variations in the molten alloy = have an effect on the molten lead density?   I wonder if the mold block temps /expansion might have an effect on the way the cavity halves fit and perhaps the cavity dimensions.


That would be an interesting test - tohave two pots of the same alloy but at different temperatures.  Cast every other bullet with one pot or the other.  That would allow you to measure the effect.

I will drill the mould and put in a thermocouple.
  

Cat Whisperer (trk)
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John Boy
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Re: Weighing bullets - process control
Reply #48 - Nov 24th, 2013 at 9:10am
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Cat: the spout of ladle is stuffed tight into the sprue hole during the pour.  Then I tilt it slightly so to release any air build up (you'll see bubbling), count 5 seconds and then create the sprue puddle.  Again, depending on the weight of the bullet, the frost time is the next critical step ... up to 10 seconds for bullets greater than 500grs.

The scale is from Deal Extreme in Singapore with free shipping ... (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
For a cheap digital, it has an excellent strain gauge that governs the quality of the read outs, repeats constant weights with no fluctuation and is dead nuts accurate.  Have verified using a beam balance scale with calibration weights and on the digital also  

  
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Re: Weighing bullets - process control
Reply #49 - Nov 24th, 2013 at 9:15am
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Thanks John!

Can I assume you use the frosting over as the critical indicator of sprue temperature and hence then (or a second or so later) cut the sprue?

  

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Re: Weighing bullets - process control
Reply #50 - Nov 24th, 2013 at 9:37am
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Quote:
Can I assume you use the frosting over as the critical indicator of sprue temperature and hence then (or a second or so later) cut the sprue?
Cat - the pot melt and mold temperatures have to be the same to create a puddle melt that are equal for a minimum 5 second frosting time.  I also spread the puddle on the sprue plate to help maintain a constant temperature of the plate.  Remember all molds heat differently so bring everything up to the temperature so the minimum frost time is 5 seconds.

If one doesn't wait for the the puddle to frost and then cut the sprue... you will have a hot coating of lead on top of the mold halves.  Then you are in deep doo - doo!
  
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Re: Weighing bullets - process control
Reply #51 - Nov 24th, 2013 at 9:45am
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Cat_Whisperer wrote on Nov 24th, 2013 at 9:02am:
SSS -  I've got one of those.  SOMEDAY I'll hook it up!  (round tuit syndrome).

First got mine when I started casting and everything I was reading said melt temp of ~775F and my thermometer was reading ~730F and I was getting badly frosted bullets above that. Checked it against the TC (+/-2F) and it was reading 45F low. Casting temp with the thermometer is only an 'indicator'. Find the temp that works and use that temp. But don't believe that it is anywhere near 'accurate'.

John - that's a nice price on that scale. I'm going to order one to put on the shelf as I'm dead-in-the-water if my scale dies as I have no back-up. OK now, but not when the season opens.
  

Glenn - 2x CPA 44 1/2 w/22LR (Shilen ratchet-rifled & Bartlein 5R rifled), 38-40RH & 38-55WCF (Bartlein 5R rifled) & 40-65WCF (GrnMtn 'X') barrels
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Re: Weighing bullets - process control
Reply #52 - Nov 24th, 2013 at 11:19am
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Cat,

The interesting thing about your graph is that the weight goes up and down after you get into the main casting session.  I get essentially no variation during the middle of the casting session unless I stop to rest my hands or add lead.

I start with my mold heated on a hotplate.  Will still get about 5 or 10 that weigh lighter.  Then, the weight stabilizes, and is very consistent.

I cast about 135 to 150 bullets at a time with the goal of keeping 120 that are within .1 grains + - of each other.  I lay the bullets out in order cast.  I do a row of about 30 at a time, then stop and add some lead to the pot.  I keep the mold on the hotplate while stopped.  My technique is to use a lee 20 pound pot, lyman ladle.  I hold the mold horizontal, dip the ladle, pour a bit out to clear dross from the spout, and then put it to the sprue plate and tip the mold and ladle up.  Hold for a count of 3, then pull the ladle away and pour a puddle on the sprue plate.  Count to 8 and the sprue should be frosting over.  Wait another 4 count, cut the sprue over the pot and let it fall back in.  Open the mold over a towel, and the bullet falls out.  I then pick up the previous bullet cast and place it in the row in order, leaving the just cast bullet to cool a bit before I pick it up.  This whole process of dropping the bullet and moving the last one gives me about a 10 count for the mold to cool slightly before the next cast.

Using this technique, I can usually get 100 to 120 bullets within .1 grain of the median weight from a batch of 135 to 150.  I usually reject about 10 at the beginning that are light, and about 3 to 5 when I add lead to the pot.  Other than that, I reject maybe one out of 20 that is light for some reason, I presume voids.  Occasionally visually discard one also.

The mold matters in this.  I can hold .1 grain with 375 and .32 molds I have.  My favorite .458 540 grain holds only .2.

dave
  
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Re: Weighing bullets - process control
Reply #53 - Nov 24th, 2013 at 2:01pm
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Dave, thanks, good comments on detailing techniques.

The 30 or so in each graph are after I've gotten rolling (10 or 20 before and a bunch after).  From what I remember, the cycles were getting faster as the sprues weren't cooling as quickly and the mould getting hotter.  I have to get better at timing and measuring things.

I'm not quite up to recording each bullet of the 150 yet (when it gets much more refined, perhaps; or if I can do it electronically).

I've got a bunch of cycles of this to go.  But I need to address each (perceived) issue to resolve it if needed and move on.

I'm sitting down when I cast, with the furnace on the table.  Not conducive to using a dipper.  Might just have to build a table that puts the top of the pot at 30-33" above the floor.
  

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Re: Weighing bullets - process control
Reply #54 - Nov 24th, 2013 at 3:02pm
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Gents - for the Good of the Order:
I don't use a PID but maybe one of these years.
Anyway, I use a Tel-Tru BIG Green Egg, Primo, Grill Dome, Kamado Replacement Thermometer LT225R ... (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
It is accurate and  can be re-calibrated by adjusting the dial. Every once in a while, I stick it in a pot of boiling water with a digital thermometer also in the pot. The temperature on the digital compared to the Tel-Tru was only once out of adjustment by a few degrees a couple of years ago ... and I have been using this same Tel-Tru for close to 10 years
  
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Re: Weighing bullets - process control
Reply #55 - Nov 24th, 2013 at 3:44pm
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Wow.  I appreciate the feedback and discussion!

This afternoon's batch incorporated 3 changes.  (I like to change ONE thing at a time but....)

Not wanting to move (yet) to using a dipper, I moved the mould UP to 1/4" to 1/2" under the spigot after trying directly in contact.  (didn't feel comfortable with in-contact yet, so just under it)  I think the minor variations are from my varying the height, need to fix a support to control that.

second change was to tap the alignment pins in (two taps with a punch each) to tighten a SLIGHT perceived looseness.  (ROUNDESS was much improved.)

Third change was to dump the sprues into a collection bin - ooofda!  Didn't realize how much they accumulated.

Data is attached.  Of note, variation is less (delta of 3.6 now down to 2.5), and trend line of going lighter heavier lighter is likely the control of the heating element on the pot - now readily apparent.

This will be interesting to see the effect when I add the PID controller.
  

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Re: Weighing bullets - process control
Reply #56 - Nov 24th, 2013 at 4:45pm
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Cat_Whisperer wrote on Nov 24th, 2013 at 9:02am:
SSS -  I've got one of those.  SOMEDAY I'll hook it up!  (round tuit syndrome)

Big block - little block --> temperature stability.  Good of  you to note that.


They sell them here:
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
  
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Re: Weighing bullets - process control
Reply #57 - Nov 24th, 2013 at 9:46pm
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Two more batches.
Learned a little more.
Put the spigot to the sprue plate, paused and added a puddle.  

Went faster.  Lowered the flow rate a little.

Pausing several seconds holding the pressure on the alloy flow allowed the pause time to sprue puddle freeze to be much less.

Did NOT like results at same temperature as previous batches, therefore lowered it from about 720 to 680dF.  Finning was evident, more so in higher temperature batch.

  Variation appears to be a bit less at the lower temperature.  Still can see trend of heating/cooling.  Will fix that with PID controller.

Blue line is 720dF, red line is 680dF.
  

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Re: Weighing bullets - process control
Reply #58 - Nov 24th, 2013 at 10:59pm
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Cat, do a batch of bullets with a 5 second (count 1-2-3-4-5) pour and a 5 second frost ... and then let's see what your bell curve looks like. A MUST - Be Consistent with Your Casting Rhythm
  
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Re: Weighing bullets - process control
Reply #59 - Nov 25th, 2013 at 12:08am
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So, let me get this straight. You all are trying to get the squiggly line in the graph straight? No ups and downs?  

This will make your rifle shoot as accurately as possible?  

Is it something to keep the brain working...... preventive maintenance for the noodle?

I dont understand the graph. Is it showing heat, weight?  Thinking weight. Why do you need a graph?  Why cant you write it down?   



     Joe. "AKA, Noodlehead"

  

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