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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Weighing bullets - process control (Read 47187 times)
QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Weighing bullets - process control
Reply #15 - Nov 23rd, 2013 at 10:43am
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thats one reason I like the cabin-tree style clamping handles.  that one thing has made for more uniformity in my cast bullet weight.

with larger/heavier bullets, in larger cases, with more powder, it appears to me that the +/- tolerances of various ammo components have less impact on overall accuracy (as compared to all the other factors involved in shooting a tight group);    at least as compared to smaller bullets and cartridges.
   When I was shooting 500+ gr 45-70 I concluded for my own use that a 1/2% (not .5 gr) weight tolerance either side of the average was good enough----but I was only shooting  ASSRA 200 yard benchrest targets.  I sorted and grouped by smaller increments---1/2 gr as I recall  and shot them in weight ranges rather than casting order--only discarding those outside the 1/2% variation.       I also chilled my cast bullets in the fridge to a uniform temp and then weighed them cold
  

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Re: Weighing bullets - process control
Reply #16 - Nov 23rd, 2013 at 10:59am
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SSShooter wrote on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 8:36am:
Think that trying to weigh 'out of the mold' would cause more variations due to inconsistencies introduced by varying wait times/mold cooling while doing so. I cast 300 - 365gr for my 38cal and 370-450gr for my 40cal and find that the best thing for good "weight control" is establishing a consistent casting rhythm and good pot temp control. I weigh after casting is complete and sort into 0.5gr lots. Anything outside of the two lots (-0.5 - 0.0 gr & 0.0gr -+0.5gr) is segregated into fouling loads or tossed back into the pot. 
I have no proof that closer or wider weight control makes any difference on the target. But, as my method yields 98%+ good bullets and pretty much eliminates one more variable to worry about, I'm good with it. Real-time process control on a manual casting system is likely not worth the effort. YMMV.

It does't cause a difference in weight because I don't wait to cast another bullet watching the scale. I keep as strict a cadence as i possible can when casting. putting a bullet on the scale and taking it off  and setting it on the towel in order cast is just one of the steps in my casting sequence. I use an electronic scale, and while a bullet is on the scale, I am filling the mold again, and while I am counting in my head on the timing after the puddle frosts, I glance at the weight, and either put the bullet back into the melt, or set it on the towel to cool. Most of my bullets weigh + or - about .2 grains if they are not at the same weight. The only time I normally have a large variation, is when I have some reason to stop casting...like burned my finger or something...LOL..and of course refilling the pot after 100 bullets....I'm talking about 535 grain bullets ...I do start out allowing a little lighter bullets , but, Not more than 1 grain Total!...This works for 1 1/2 MOA.

Terry....
  

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Re: Weighing bullets - process control
Reply #17 - Nov 23rd, 2013 at 11:23am
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Kurt_701 wrote on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 8:49am:
To me, weighing the bullets is an indicator. Consistant weight, tells me my process is working. 
Kurt   


I agree with that.  If you are seeing lots of variation in the as cast order then you are doing something wrong.  I used to see that when I bottom poured.  I don't weigh them at the time of casting, but I keep them sorted by casting order.  When I get home to weigh them it's not uncommon to have runs of ten or more bullets that weigh the same, within the measuring limits of my Lyman scale.  It took me quite a while to get to that point.  Now if only I could hold the rifle as consistently....

Chris.

  
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Re: Weighing bullets - process control
Reply #18 - Nov 23rd, 2013 at 11:36am
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Excellent chart. Have found I can weigh faster than I can inspect but reject those with obvious base flaws. Would have rejected several of those bullets. Rejects usually show some flaw, some don't. Does that chart question the value of keeping bullets in the order cast? Granted, it is a limited sample, but don’t see the gradual changes one would hope to gain by keeping bullets in order.

This is excellent work and the first semi-scientific approach to bullet casting I have seen. Please keep reporting your results.
Chuck
  
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Re: Weighing bullets - process control
Reply #19 - Nov 23rd, 2013 at 1:24pm
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Kurt_701 wrote on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 8:49am:
To me the act of shooting bullets as cast is to minimize the variation. If the lead temperature is same from bullet to bullet, you stand to minimize variation. Fill your mould in the same manner. Try to leave the same amount of lead on the spru plate. In other words , be consistant in your casting. Then I weight the bullets and sort by weight. To me, weighing the bullets is an indicator. Consistant weight, tells me my process is working.
Kurt   


SPOT ON!

  

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Re: Weighing bullets - process control
Reply #20 - Nov 23rd, 2013 at 1:29pm
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Chuckster wrote on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 11:36am:
Excellent chart. Have found I can weigh faster than I can inspect but reject those with obvious base flaws. Would have rejected several of those bullets. Rejects usually show some flaw, some don't. Does that chart question the value of keeping bullets in the order cast? Granted, it is a limited sample, but don’t see the gradual changes one would hope to gain by keeping bullets in order.

This is excellent work and the first semi-scientific approach to bullet casting I have seen. Please keep reporting your results.
Chuck


I've been dropping the bullet, refilling, placing the dropped bullet on the tray and waiting for the sprue puddle to frost over.  (I could add weighing and maybe make the time more consistent.)

I've thought of moving in a computer so I can watch the graph as I cast.  Then I could date-stamp each entry to watch variations in time too.  Heck, temperature monitoring could be added.

More soon.
  

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Re: Weighing bullets - process control
Reply #21 - Nov 23rd, 2013 at 2:33pm
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gunlaker wrote on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 11:23am:
Kurt_701 wrote on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 8:49am:
To me, weighing the bullets is an indicator. Consistant weight, tells me my process is working. 
Kurt   


I agree with that.  If you are seeing lots of variation in the as cast order then you are doing something wrong.  I used to see that when I bottom poured.  I don't weigh them at the time of casting, but I keep them sorted by casting order.  When I get home to weigh them it's not uncommon to have runs of ten or more bullets that weigh the same, within the measuring limits of my Lyman scale.  It took me quite a while to get to that point.  Now if only I could hold the rifle as consistently....
Chris.


Coool!  a) a bunch in a row the same and b) a reminder that the scale is only so accurate - I need to get something with two decimal readout.
  

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Re: Weighing bullets - process control
Reply #22 - Nov 23rd, 2013 at 7:39pm
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Cast another batch.  40-350 RCBS mould this time.  Mould to sprue was better (less slop in clearance.  Mould felt tighter when closing.

Paid special attention to timing.  Pour, set mould down, move previous bullet to tray, drop bullet, refill.  Paid special attention to keeping each cycle the same as previous cycles.  Noted when heater of the Mag20 turned on and off (about a 50% duty cycle - each half being about 10 bullets [ouch]).

Found out that when I tried to TIME the process that a Tablet doesn't respond to touch with a gloved hand.  Bummer.
  

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Re: Weighing bullets - process control
Reply #23 - Nov 23rd, 2013 at 7:46pm
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Note also that there is a distinct trend to lighter bullets.  I observed as I was casting that the sprues were frosting over later and later.  I assume the mould was getting hotter.

  

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Re: Weighing bullets - process control
Reply #24 - Nov 23rd, 2013 at 8:23pm
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Cat_Whisperer wrote on Nov 23rd, 2013 at 2:33pm:

Coool!  a) a bunch in a row the same and b) a reminder that the scale is only so accurate - I need to get something with two decimal readout.

Easy enough when your scale is 0.1gr readout. Have gone to a GemPro250 scale in past month and am pleased with both the considerable increase in speed of the readout and the 0.02gr accuracy. Hopefully, will be as reliable as the 7-yr old PACT scale it replaced proved to be.
  

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Re: Weighing bullets - process control
Reply #25 - Nov 23rd, 2013 at 8:31pm
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Looked at it on Amazon - 125$.   Hmmm.  I think when I go that much on a scale I'll get one with RS-232 (serial port) or USB.

  

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Re: Weighing bullets - process control
Reply #26 - Nov 23rd, 2013 at 8:33pm
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SSS- do your 40cal 360s take down Rams well?Or do the 450s work a lot better.Are both creedmore type bullets.I am using 360 saecos that weigh 370gr and vary about 1gr.From the bench I can't see any difference in 200yd groups.I am pushing these at 1340fps.Any info would help.Bob,in PA.
  
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Re: Weighing bullets - process control
Reply #27 - Nov 23rd, 2013 at 8:37pm
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Interesting the bullets tend to be heavier when the mould and spruce plate get hotter? Are you by chance putting the spruces back in the pot as you are casting. Your extreme weight spreads appear to be on the high side.
With my 32-40 bullet I remain in the 4 tenths range as long as I keep moving at a rapid pace. Fill mould, frost, cut spruce, drop bullet and refill mould as quickly as I can for all phases. If that cadence gets interupted the least amount that 4 tenths spread immediately goes down the tubes. If one puts the sprues back in the pot while casting any hopes of consistency will not exist. 

This has just been my perssonel experiance and it took me quite sometime / months to get to the point of no longer having to weigh my bullets.

JLouis
« Last Edit: Nov 23rd, 2013 at 8:43pm by JLouis »  

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Re: Weighing bullets - process control
Reply #28 - Nov 23rd, 2013 at 8:59pm
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I think the bullets are getting lighter as the mould heats up.

I'll try tomorrow a series with NO dropping the cut-off sprues into the pot.  It will make a good comparison.

Thanks!

I think that not pausing every 8th or 10th bullet for a sip of beer helps too.  Smiley
  

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Re: Weighing bullets - process control
Reply #29 - Nov 23rd, 2013 at 9:35pm
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Actually, I put the sprues back into the pot between casting bullets, and have the same tight tolerance your talking about. I don't think it matters exactly how you do you casting ........to a point, but it does matter how you do it from bullet too bullet too bullet....just like shooting shot too shot too shot!

Terry Smiley
  

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