Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 Send TopicPrint
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) annealing BB 25-20 brass (Read 4385 times)
QuestionableMaynard8130
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 4144
Location: Benton  Harbor MI
Joined: Apr 17th, 2004
annealing BB 25-20 brass
Oct 23rd, 2013 at 8:19pm
Print Post  
since annealing Bertram brass seems to be a hot topic I need to ask:   for standard 25-20 SS does it need to be annealed like other BB cases.   I have somehow ended up with a more than adequate supply.
I lucked into nearly 100 more cases today--almost all are BB.  Some are at least once fired and about 3/4 look to be "virgin",  (of course thats pretty hard to tell, visually, sometimes)   For those who are using it in standard 25-20 ss, how far down did you anneal them?
  

sacred cows make the best burger
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Bent_Ramrod
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1457
Location: Southern Arizona
Joined: Feb 8th, 2006
Re: annealing BB 25-20 brass
Reply #1 - Oct 23rd, 2013 at 9:22pm
Print Post  
I put about 5/16"-3/8" of water in a pan, stand the case up and spin pan and case, heating the case mouth with a propane torch, until I see blue move to the shoulder.  By then, the water at the waterline is sizzling nicely.  I knock the case over, pick it out, put another in and repeat.  I'm only concerned that the water is deep enough to completely cover the case when it tips over.

Bertram cases being what they are, I would say annealing cannot hurt, at worst.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Sendaro
Oldtimer
*****
Offline


When the sight is on SEND
IT!

Posts: 588
Location: Saratoga Springs NY
Joined: Nov 21st, 2010
Re: annealing BB 25-20 brass
Reply #2 - Oct 24th, 2013 at 7:54am
Print Post  
Bertram cases that I have worked with have been a real disapointment. A few years back I worked with a rifle that Mike Walker built back in the early 1940s. It was a custom Winchester high wall target/varmint rifle in R2 Lovel chambering. Bertram (new) brass was used to make the cartridge cases for the project. They looked nice when I started to work with them, but soon found out that they were soft in the head. Even light loads would cause the primer pockets to enlarge in some cases and some not. I was very disapointed with the quality of the Bertram brass I purchased for the project. 

More recently I have worked with Jamison brass in 25-20 SS and have been very pleased with the quality of it.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
40_Rod
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Extremism in the persuit
of accuracy is not a
vice

Posts: 4285
Location: Knoxville, TN
Joined: Apr 20th, 2004
Re: annealing BB 25-20 brass
Reply #3 - Oct 24th, 2013 at 8:23am
Print Post  
I anneal pretty much the same way with all the cases that I do. Draw a pan of cold water, if you are doing a lot of cases float some ice in the water. Get a propane torch, light it and stand it next to the pan. Now stick about 3/8” into the flame and roll in back and forth. When you feel them get warm drop in the cold water. 
  Do not heat them till they start to glow or turn red. That will over anneal them and shorten case life as surely as doing nothing.
40 Rod
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
QuestionableMaynard8130
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 4144
Location: Benton  Harbor MI
Joined: Apr 17th, 2004
Re: annealing BB 25-20 brass
Reply #4 - Oct 24th, 2013 at 9:42am
Print Post  
On my 9.5x47r BB split, the neck/shoulder did not split. It was the body from below the shoulder 1/2 way down the body.     I'm wondering about annealing farther down than just the neck area of the 25-20s.  how far down would be safe without softening the heads?

If the heads are indeed soft; could one heat the whole batch in the kitchen oven and then air cool to harden the heads. Then anneal the cases x-distance down the body?
  

sacred cows make the best burger
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
waterman
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2833
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Joined: Jun 9th, 2004
Re: annealing BB 25-20 brass
Reply #5 - Oct 24th, 2013 at 4:33pm
Print Post  
I am not a metallurgist, but I have annealed a bunch of BB cases.  I have also overdone it & softened the heads on a score or more.  How far down do the splits go?  You need to anneal farther down than that to relieve the longitudinal stresses from case forming, yet not so far down that you soften the heads.   

I agree with the pan & water approach, but instead of the pan, I use a bucket with the cases set up on a brick. The bucket full of water is the heat sink.  Adjust the height of water in the bucket so that it is at or just below the distance you want to anneal.  When the brass is hot enough, just tip it off the brick & into the water.   

The 25-20 SS case is so small that I question the need to rotate, but that is a personal choice.   

FWIW, I now have both Jamison & original brass for my SS and no longer need the BB stuff.  I can't remember the new name for Jamison, but if the cases are the same, there is no need to look elsewhere.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Chickenthief
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 81
Location: Here
Joined: Aug 5th, 2013
Re: annealing BB 25-20 brass
Reply #6 - Oct 25th, 2013 at 11:19am
Print Post  
QuestionableMaynard8130 wrote on Oct 24th, 2013 at 9:42am:
On my 9.5x47r BB split, the neck/shoulder did not split. It was the body from below the shoulder 1/2 way down the body.     I'm wondering about annealing farther down than just the neck area of the 25-20s.  how far down would be safe without softening the heads?

If the heads are indeed soft; could one heat the whole batch in the kitchen oven and then air cool to harden the heads. Then anneal the cases x-distance down the body?


You can only anneal brass not harden it in any way other than workharden.

If the cases are put in @ ½" of water the cases can be annealed almost down to the edge of the water. Even if the water boils, 212degF is not enough to soften the heads.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
QuestionableMaynard8130
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 4144
Location: Benton  Harbor MI
Joined: Apr 17th, 2004
Re: annealing BB 25-20 brass
Reply #7 - Oct 25th, 2013 at 12:48pm
Print Post  
I always thought that heating and then air cooling brass hardened it-----brass opposite being of steel in that regard.
  

sacred cows make the best burger
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Dr Tom
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 211
Joined: Apr 19th, 2012
Re: annealing BB 25-20 brass
Reply #8 - Oct 25th, 2013 at 10:45pm
Print Post  
It's the heat that anneals. Most metals require slow cooling to retain the effect. Brass isn't picky about cooling rate.  25-20SS is the only BB that I don't anneal. I have not had primer pocket issues or splits. Knock on walnut.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Reg
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 180
Location: Wray Colorado
Joined: Apr 28th, 2009
Re: annealing BB 25-20 brass
Reply #9 - Oct 26th, 2013 at 11:13am
Print Post  
I think the intended use of the brass might have a lot to do with how it was made.  About 20 years ago I started using Bertram brass in a couple of Stevens 44's in 25-20. Through the years they have been reloaded up to 20 plus times with not 1 failure.  The loads were all kept low, none exceeded 5 grain Unique or equal loads.  Many were even lower.  By my own testing I found that the Bertram was superior to any older , original brass that I found. 
Updating to this year and playing with a R-2 Lovell Krag single shot I see now that the Bertram brass is not standing the gaff as well.  2 out of 20 primer pocket expansions at first firing and several more at later firings.  Yes, I blame it on soft brass heads but
lets stop and be realistic.  The brass was never intended or sold as R-2 brass but rather a low pressure replacement of a obsolete case that hasn't been available for many years.  At this, at least in my book--- it excels and I am darned glad to have it.
Smiley
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
40_Rod
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline


Extremism in the persuit
of accuracy is not a
vice

Posts: 4285
Location: Knoxville, TN
Joined: Apr 20th, 2004
Re: annealing BB 25-20 brass
Reply #10 - Oct 27th, 2013 at 8:42am
Print Post  
The idea of quenching the round is to keep the heat from traveling into areas of the cartridge that you don’t need / want annealed. Brass is a terrific conductor of heat and if just left out will anneal the entire case. It takes a lot less heat than most people think to anneal brass, and like has been stated it can’t be hardened except by work hardening it. 

40 Rod
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send TopicPrint