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Stractor
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Hardening Extractors
Aug 14th, 2013 at 12:23am
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I have been working on an IAB Sharps that I got for cheap. The rifle is in excellent shape but the insides look like they were put together by a bunch of 8 year olds with files! You could barely chamber a new brass, as the extractor was hanging into the chamber. In repairing the extractor I noticed it was pretty much soft and made with a file. My question is should I surface harden it using a hardening compound. I have several cans of Casenit. I don't think any parts of this rifle were ever heat treated/hardened. I have replaced the tumbler and sear with modified and hardened versions from another maker. 
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Bob
  
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Chuckster
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Re: Hardening Extractors
Reply #1 - Aug 14th, 2013 at 12:28pm
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Everyone has their own way of doing it. Usually caseharden the bottom half of a mild steel extractor. This is where it pivots and the cam strikes it. Center-fire extractors don't have the offset of a rim-fire and strength is not usually an issue. Make sure a file will still cut the upper half after casehardening. Otherwise, it is not mild steel and you will have to draw some temper.
Chuck
  
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frnkeore
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Re: Hardening Extractors
Reply #2 - Aug 14th, 2013 at 4:54pm
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Casnit can harden a tin part like the extractor, clear through. Be careful and make sure you draw it back to at least 600 F. And as Chuck say's, make sure you can still cut it with a file.

Frank
  

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ALPHAWOLF45
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Re: Hardening Extractors
Reply #3 - Aug 17th, 2013 at 7:54am
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  You don't want to case harden parts willy nilly. First you should determine if the part is low carbon steel that will benefit from case hardening and quenching in water or is it a high carbon steel that will go brittle hard all the way thru if water quenched.. First thing I do with unknownium steel is heat and quench a small section and try it with a file..(Actually I use a Rockwell Hardness tester). If it remains soft then it gets the Casenit.. If it gets hard its still unknown alloy but heat treat it as if it were a new spring will probably give you what you want.
  
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Stractor
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Re: Hardening Extractors
Reply #4 - Aug 17th, 2013 at 9:55pm
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I think the steel in this IAB sharps is old beer cans. Nothing is hardened.I have used Casenit on several of the screws used as pivots and it has worked OK. The firing pin has some heat treatment, but the breech block doesn't seem to have any or very little. The double set trigger assembly was so badly made that it required a remake, they drilled the front trigger pivot pin hole crooked in the trigger plate, so instead of scrapping the plate they filed the pivot pin to a smaller diameter so the trigger would seem to line up straight. I have been at this thing for a week, modifying and repairing shoddy work. It is coming together.
  
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desert-dude
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Re: Hardening Extractors
Reply #5 - Aug 21st, 2013 at 10:44pm
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If you remember steel beer cans either you drank beer at a young age or started drinking beer much younger than I did.  Grin

When parts are made from junk steel it is tempting to copy the part with steel of a known quality. 1018/A36 are low carbon steels but respond to case hardening. 8620 is a triple alloy steel that is easy to heat treat and will also case harden easily. I usually case harden with the parts encased in a box packed with charcoal and BaCl2 as an activator. Check out the Harris equation for carbon diffusion vs temp. If you don't want case color you can harden in the box. Let cool and then heat in a salt bath and quench. If looking for max hardness then quench in water or brine (pretty drastic). Oil should give you a decent hardness. Temper in the kitchen oven at 300 for a couple of hours. 


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Aonghas
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Re: Hardening Extractors
Reply #6 - Aug 28th, 2013 at 5:49pm
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Stractor wrote on Aug 14th, 2013 at 12:23am:
I have been working on an IAB Sharps that I got for cheap. The rifle is in excellent shape but the insides look like they were put together by a bunch of 8 year olds with files! You could barely chamber a new brass, as the extractor was hanging into the chamber. In repairing the extractor I noticed it was pretty much soft and made with a file. My question is should I surface harden it using a hardening compound. I have several cans of Casenit. I don't think any parts shootingof this rifle were ever heat treated/hardened. I have replaced the tumbler and sear with modified and hardened versions from another maker. 
Thanks
Bob


No. Make a new one from an old file. You will need to forge it to an 'L' shape.

Then file it to fit if you don't have a lathe or a mill. If you have a bench drill and drill-vice you can cut the stub to fit the case, and then the recess for the rim - carefully.

Cut it and file it until it fits. (If you don't know about draw-filing, search for it. You will need a first-cut file for this. First-cut files are only cut one way, not two, like most of them.) it would pay to practise on some bits of scrap before you attack the job...

You won't need to harden or otherwise heat-treat the job when it's finished: the material is hard enough and tough enough to outlast the rest of the rifle.

Aonghas
  
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Bibbyman
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Re: Hardening Extractors
Reply #7 - Aug 28th, 2013 at 7:42pm
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Will the forging process soften the file enough to file? 
  
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frnkeore
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Re: Hardening Extractors
Reply #8 - Aug 29th, 2013 at 1:47am
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Quote:
Will the forging process soften the file enough to file? 

 
It will be in what's call a normalized state after forging. A file will probably cut it, but not for long. It will need to be anealed, you do that by retarding the cooling. After you forge it, bury it in deep in something like cat litter. After cooling over night or at least 6-8 hours, it will be as soft as the parent metal can be, but still not what you'd call soft.

Frank
  

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firearmdoc
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Re: Hardening Extractors
Reply #9 - Aug 29th, 2013 at 7:56pm
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If you want to slow the cooling process, fill a metal coffee can with play sand and cook the sand in the oven at a high temp. After heating the new part, put it in the hot sand and let the whole thing cool down in the garage for a day.

Jesse
  
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John Taylor
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Re: Hardening Extractors
Reply #10 - Aug 30th, 2013 at 11:59am
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I use ashes for annealing metal. Anything that will not suck the heat out and keep the cool air away will work.
Some of the new files are just case hardened and have soft centers. Best to test the metal before making a part from it. Grind through the surface and see if a file will touch it. Might be just as good to use an old car spring, you know it will not be case hardened.
« Last Edit: Aug 30th, 2013 at 12:04pm by John Taylor »  

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Stractor
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Re: Hardening Extractors
Reply #11 - Aug 30th, 2013 at 1:07pm
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Thanks for the replys. I think we went slightly astray.The original extractor was OK but just soft and I thought that case hardening it would add some rigidity and wear-ability  to it. I have decided to make the rifle into a .22 so the extractor is for decoration now.I am using a Crossno liner but there are some things I don't like about it. So--I have decided to make my own to fit this rifle only, so I have control over how it is made. I have already made a new firing pin in the shape of an 'I' so I would get more reliable 
ignition. I have the tools to do pretty much anything. One of my other interests was small shop tools and having had a friend in the business of selling used home shop tools I have filled the basement. The Bridgeport in the picture took a year to restore/rebuild to what I wanted. The second DRO under the big DRO I made from a scratch and it shows spindle speed-Quill travel and Knee travel. The Servo power feeds came from the junk pile and were rebuilt by me, most had bad circuit boards or broken gears, I now know more than I want to know about them, getting the info out of Servo Products was the hard part.
Thanks for all the replys, interesting about the files.
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« Last Edit: Aug 30th, 2013 at 1:15pm by Stractor »  
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frnkeore
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Re: Hardening Extractors
Reply #12 - Aug 30th, 2013 at 2:01pm
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That's about the fanciest Round ram that I've ever seen and it's most likely a WW2 vet, too. 

I worked on a couple of them back in the 70's.

Frank
  

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Stractor
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Re: Hardening Extractors
Reply #13 - Aug 30th, 2013 at 2:26pm
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Can't tell the date the original side cover for the base was missing and the serial was on there. Most likely late 40-50's was in a lot of 5 my friend bought and had the best table abet the short table. This one was my first and is my backup and I do know the date -Waltham Watch Tool Company--1898 Universal mill and it has all its original drive and head, but is too fast and noisy so the Bridgeport 'M' head on a bar where the horizontal overarm goes.. I am proud of both of them, but that is another story.

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« Last Edit: Aug 31st, 2013 at 3:30pm by Stractor »  
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