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fallingblock
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Remington #2 Ornithologist Gun
Apr 12th, 2013 at 2:51pm
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I am trying to determine if this is a factory #2 Ornithologist Gun. Does any one have any information to help? I have asked on the Remington Collectors Site but no one has replied.

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Markings under barrel

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laurie
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Remington #2 Ornithologist Gun
Reply #1 - Apr 12th, 2013 at 9:02pm
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I can understand why you didn't get an answer. At least if they are as perplexed as I am about such a marking. I've never heard of an "onothologist gun", and not sure why they would have a special model, or barreled gun? 
I'm also unsure what the "38 SE" might be. I would guess it might be a .38 Short, but not sure on the "E" after 38 S. 
If it was a for some zoologist who specialized in birds, maybe it's some sort of .38 shot for gathering birds? Is it a smoothbore, and do you know the caliber?
  

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BP
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Re: Remington #2 Ornithologist Gun
Reply #2 - Apr 12th, 2013 at 9:30pm
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Gathering samples of previously unknown bird species for study using small light arms was pretty common when there were still relatively unexplored areas that could be called "the dark continent". 

Since most samples obtained went back for study and on to the taxidermist before ending up as part of a university or field museum display, light rifles or smoothbores were used to keep damage to the bird to the minimum possible. I recall reading that Audubon and others posed the birds they collected before doing their drawings and paintings.

I don't remember seeing any mention in a Remington catalog for an Ornithologist Gun as a standard model, but I think maybe Hopkins and Allen might have produced a model for species collection. 

Maybe that #2 was a special order. Is there any kind of provenance?
  

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Re: Remington #2 Ornithologist Gun
Reply #3 - Apr 12th, 2013 at 9:39pm
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Laurie,

I think you've nailed down what it is, but finding documentation for it may be tough.  

Is there a set of initials just in front of the action on the barrel?

From what I've read and seen on Remingtons, the markings you have are:

spl for special order.

Orni  - your guess of ornitholigist gun is probably right.

32 sb is for 32 shot cartridge, smoothbore.  I presume it is in .32 smoothbore?  Is it rimfire, or centerfire?

Some of the guns I have seen marked spl had LLH stamped near the action.  LL Hepburn was the custom shop manager that did special orders.  I've also seen another mark, I think it was KB, but I can't remember exactly.  I may have a rifle so marked in the safe now.  I'll check.

I've seen these small bore shot guns called taxidermists guns in the old catalogs.  Ornitologist gun would be another appropriate term.  In those politically incorrect days, a birder went out, looked for a rare bird, and shot it to bring it back to identify and to prove he had seen it.  Common use of cameras later took some of the fun out of the hobby of bird watching and identification.

dave  

P.S.  BP posted while I was typing, see he volunteered some of the same info.
  
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Walter  Matera
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Re: Remington #2 Ornithologist Gun
Reply #4 - Apr 13th, 2013 at 12:10am
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I'm no expert on Remingtons but the general descriptions above ring true.  And not only did the camera replace the taxidermists' guns but so has DNA analysis.  Today someone traps a new species, takes a blood sample to go along with a bunch of photos and lets it go.  On the basis of the DNA a new species is identified.  Very technical . . .
  
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Re: Remington #2 Ornithologist Gun
Reply #5 - Apr 13th, 2013 at 8:25am
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The Cabildo Museum in New Orleans had a display of JJ Audubon's paintings and tools that he used for taxidermy.
Included was a small gauge flintlock fowling piece purportedly used by Audubon to collect his specimens.
  
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Re: Remington #2 Ornithologist Gun
Reply #6 - Apr 13th, 2013 at 9:12am
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Have seen a number of smoothbores in normal pistol calibers but never one marked as Ornithologist.  Collecting birds was very popular and no doubt special rifles were made for collectors.

Nice rifle and very collectable

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marlinguy
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Re: Remington #2 Ornithologist Gun
Reply #7 - Apr 13th, 2013 at 11:33am
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ssdave wrote on Apr 12th, 2013 at 9:39pm:
Laurie,
32 sb is for 32 shot cartridge, smoothbore.  I presume it is in .32 smoothbore?  Is it rimfire, or centerfire? 

dave  


That sure makes more sense (SB and not SE) than what I thought the stamp was! I blew it up to try to make out the 2nd stamp, and still didn't see it as a B Dave. Thanks!
Thought the caliber was .38 though?
  

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fallingblock
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Re: Remington #2 Ornithologist Gun
Reply #8 - Apr 13th, 2013 at 1:07pm
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Sorry that the picture didn't come out clearer. It is clear on the original that the mark is 38 SB. I will see if I can fix the picture on  Photo bucket. The gun looks correct but I have never seen one like it before. It is in nice condition and the bore is great and even appears to be choked.
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Laurie
  

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Re: Remington #2 Ornithologist Gun
Reply #9 - Apr 13th, 2013 at 1:30pm
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That's one very cool little rifle... er, shotgun... Wink  Thanks for posting!!
  

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Re: Remington #2 Ornithologist Gun
Reply #10 - Apr 13th, 2013 at 3:10pm
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Well I tried to change the picture on Photo Bucket and no luck.
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Laurie
  

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Re: Remington #2 Ornithologist Gun
Reply #11 - Apr 13th, 2013 at 4:17pm
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Laurie,

The markings are clearer than they were with the earlier photo so your attempt to modify the earlier photo definitely helped. Is the character to the right of the SB and to the left of the 2 an A or ?

Have you determined what the basic case is that was used for the shot cartridge? 

It's definitely an intriguing #2 variant!
  

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Re: Remington #2 Ornithologist Gun
Reply #12 - Apr 13th, 2013 at 5:48pm
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It reads SPL   ORNI      38  SB       12. 
The case is 38 special with no chamber so a longer case can be used.
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Re: Remington #2 Ornithologist Gun
Reply #13 - Apr 13th, 2013 at 7:58pm
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Laurie,

Thanks for the clarification and additional info. 
Makes me wonder how 38 cal CCI shot capsules with #7 1/2 to #9 shot might perform. Could be a lot of fun to find out!

  

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Re: Remington #2 Ornithologist Gun
Reply #14 - Apr 13th, 2013 at 9:12pm
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I used to load those shot capsules for my S&W Victory.  It did best with # 9 You can't get much larger shot in the capsule

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Re: Remington #2 Ornithologist Gun
Reply #15 - Apr 15th, 2013 at 11:04am
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Surprised it's .38 Special. I would have expected it to be .38 Long shotshell in that era.
  

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Re: Remington #2 Ornithologist Gun
Reply #16 - Apr 15th, 2013 at 11:57am
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Sorry I was not clearer about what it was chambered for. As it is chamber less and un-marked as to caliber any case with a .378 or so base will work. I am planning on finding a few .357 max cases to try it out if spring ever gets here.
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laurie
  

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Re: Remington #2 Ornithologist Gun
Reply #17 - Apr 15th, 2013 at 1:21pm
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If you use the long .357 maximum and come up with a good wad system you don't need the plastic shot capsules

Still small bore like a 35 best use small shot 

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Re: Remington #2 Ornithologist Gun
Reply #18 - Apr 15th, 2013 at 9:19pm
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Just read about these within the last week, but don't remember which author.... John Taylor, PO Ackley or JA Hunter. Talked about ornithology guns.... Pretty sure was Hunter appropriately titled " Hunter "

  
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