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LTC B
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7.62 Nato in a Rolling block?
Oct 14th, 2012 at 10:16am
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OK. Don't worry I haven't done this. However, let's think about this.

How can a rifle fail?
 
1. Barrel threads strip off, and the barrel flies out of the receiver. I've never heard of it happening. But, for completeness, this is included.
 
2. Barrel blows up. The barrel is in hoop stress, and should never fail axially. Unless the barrel is press fit into the receiver, the receiver should not provide any consequential strength to the barrel. Thus, the barrel diameter and strength should be THE limiting strength of the rifle.
 
3. Action fails. Assuming that the barrel doesn't fail, all that has to be done is that the breech stays closed. So, the strength of any receiver should be simply a modest factor of safety over the hoop strength of the barrel. If it is, the barrel fails first. This is why an action of infinite strength doesn't get you that much.
 
Your barrel stress is a function of the outer and inner diameters and peak chamber pressure only. The force on the breech face is a function of the pressure and case head diameter only, but can be diminished somewhat if you use a straight wall cylindrical casing that gives less impetus to rocket out backwards due to interfacial grip at the bore wall.
 

Anyway, I think this is all correct. But back to the Remington Rolling Block. The action should be stronger than the barrel. If the barrel splits, it will split at the extractor cut, and blow up the action along with it. So, if you have a barrel that will contain a 7.62 NATO round (at the extractor), and the action is stronger than the barrel, you should be OK.

Again. I haven't done this. What is wrong with this reasoning?

And, second topic, what is all this flexure and springiness I read about rolling block actions? Is there a diagram that explains this?

Steve B
  
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ssdave
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Re: 7.62 Nato in a Rolling block?
Reply #1 - Oct 14th, 2012 at 10:40am
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We've discussed this ad nauseum before, but here's a few things you're not considering.

First, the brass can also fail, leaking gas out of the action.  Leaking gas is a danger itself, as it can damage the shooter.  It also carries particles of brass or steel or powder with it, which can harm the shooter.  it also can cut the steel, starting a chain of events that can cause other failures.

Second, the springiness of the action you asked about can cause brass failure.  The springiness of the action is caused by the fact that all steel elestically stretches, then stretches non-elastically (yields), then catastrophically fails.  The arrangement of the block, hammer, hammer pins, etc on a rolling block adds several components to the action that have inherent movement to them, and that can stretch or yield even before failing, with the result that the action stretches open slightly.   

The third thing that you arent taking into account is incremental failure, or localized failure.  An analogy to this is tearing a phone book, a stunt that is sometimes done to amaze onlookers with the persons strength.  If you try to tear the phone book all at once, it is un-doable.  However, if you offset the edges slightly, so that you start tearing at the front or back, you can easily rip the book in two, since once it starts to tear, it continues with less effort than if you were to start the tear at full width.

If an action or barrel gets gas cut by escaping gases at high temp/pressure, it can start to "tear" at the cut, and the failure can perpetuate at less than full hoop strength.  A barrel that splits shows this, once the split starts at a thin point, it goes up the barrel through thicker areas.

You are only considering catastrophic failures (blowups) too.  I would consider the action jamming a failure, or bent brass, stretching, bulged primers or bent extractor.  Many of these things could happen with high pressure rounds without blowing up the action.

dave
  
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LTC B
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Re: 7.62 Nato in a Rolling block?
Reply #2 - Oct 14th, 2012 at 12:36pm
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I imagine this was talked a lot about before, but new guys = old topics.

Thanks. Any other contributions from d' Gallerie des Peanuts?
  
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drc
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Re: 7.62 Nato in a Rolling block?
Reply #3 - Oct 14th, 2012 at 12:54pm
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this gets posted a lot when folks start thinking about too much pressure in a RB

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this posting illustrates what happens on the extreme end when a RB fails.
  
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LTC B
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Re: 7.62 Nato in a Rolling block?
Reply #4 - Oct 14th, 2012 at 1:58pm
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Good post. That 7mm RB is more germane, I think.

It is my understanding that the barrel shank for a RB is the same as for a 1903 Springfield bolt action gun. If your 03 Springfield barrel will hold a particular load, why won't that same barrel hold in a RB?

Notice that the 7mm RB's barrel blew up. That happened before the receiver failed. Thus, the load wasn't too great for the RB, but too great for the BARREL.

Again, the barrel went, then the receiver went. This barrel would have failed in any gun it was in. A blowup.

Of course, once the barrel splits, some actions are safer than others. I think a Trapdoor or 03 would do better once their barrels go, no?
  
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drc
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Re: 7.62 Nato in a Rolling block?
Reply #5 - Oct 14th, 2012 at 6:16pm
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It seems like you are trying to get someone to agree with you about doing a "here hold my beer and watch this" type experiment, which usually turns out to have bad consequences.

No matter how many times people repeat that these are old actions, designed back in black powder days, there is always someone who wants to push the envelope and take a chance.

When they were chambered in 7mm, the steel was new, the loads were different, etc etc. 

If you need a 7.62 Nato single shot, do it on a Ruger Nbr 1 action.
  
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LTC B
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Re: 7.62 Nato in a Rolling block?
Reply #6 - Oct 15th, 2012 at 10:33am
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drc wrote on Oct 14th, 2012 at 6:16pm:
It seems like you are trying to get someone to agree with you about doing a "here hold my beer and watch this" type experiment, which usually turns out to have bad consequences.

No, that's not it. I'm blowup averse. If I wanted a 7.62 single shot, I'd get a high wall.  Wink

Just trying to understand. I'm reading things that seem contradictory.

The best answer I've read is that you may be above the duty rating of the components for fatigue. Further, why take the chance?

However, IF the RB action is stronger than the barrel (and everything I've read said that it is), and IF the barrel will take 7.62 Nato, then the action will as well. However, you may get a fatigue break of breech block or trigger, or pins, and also, if the barrel does go, this is an unforgiving blowup, unlike, say Trapdoors.
  
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drc
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Re: 7.62 Nato in a Rolling block?
Reply #7 - Oct 15th, 2012 at 12:06pm
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I thought a roller was a pretty strong action (and they are within their intended purposes) until I saw that all that keeps them from peeling open is the relatively little bit of metal that is the bottom of the threaded area. As a total percentage of overall metal, there really is not much there.

We all know that metal tends to fail at its weakest point. Structurally that is the weakest point. 

Now if you take that action and with a tight fitted barrel, with a hot cartridge, there is going to be metal expansion and metal flexing. If there is radial expansion, the thinnest part of the action, is right there at the bottom of the barrel. Eventually the steel wouldn't return to its original size and then the next time, the barrel would get a running start at it before starting the expansion again.   

Now I do realize and understand that the degree of expansion would have to be measured with precision instruments but it could be measured.

When I was younger, I made parts to repair lots of machinery that failed from metal fatigue, which is a consideration that you have to factor into the calculations and that is a hard thing to quantify, because you don't know the exact metal composition, how many duty cycles that the action has been through, etc. This is what tends to muddy the calculations some. 

On some of the parts at one of the places I worked at, due to the fact they were for the military, elasticity/breakage tests had to be done on the lot of metal the parts were made from. They would randomly chose one of the parts, saw it up to where we could chuck it into a lathe and we would then machine a specificied shape that they would put into a machine and pull it longitudely until it broke. But this was fresh metal.

I think they were a pretty ingenious design for the time frame but they are still a blackpowder design.  A modern action is much more radial through the barrel threads than these old guns (especially a rolling block).
  
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drc
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Re: 7.62 Nato in a Rolling block?
Reply #8 - Oct 15th, 2012 at 12:12pm
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I ran out of characters....

So as long as the expansion/flexing doesn't go beyond the elasticity/molecular bond strength of the steel/metal, everything is fine, no damage occurs and the bullet exits the end of the barrel, but with the old metal, once you start down the path of crystalization/stress fracturing, etc, it is only a matter of time until there is a failure.

There was a discussion about this concerning a Ballard that blew up at the Quigley this year. I haven't seen anything definitive (key words I haven't seen) that said it was a double charge, or the fact that it was a cast action, shooting smokeless loads and that finally it just reached the point where it could not maintain molecular adhesion and it blew up.

The best answer I've read is that you may be above the duty rating of the components for fatigue. Further, why take the chance? 

And that is true and what I was trying to say in way too many words, is that all the unknown variables (time, metal composition, previous hot loads, unknown number of loads) have reduced that duty rating to a point that you could not adequately define it to plug it into a numeric formula.

You can restore some of the formula's accuracy by such techniques as annealing and re-heat treating but you are still dealing with a metal that you don't know the exact composition of, unless you have it analyzed. 
« Last Edit: Oct 15th, 2012 at 12:19pm by drc »  
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frnkeore
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Re: 7.62 Nato in a Rolling block?
Reply #9 - Oct 15th, 2012 at 12:55pm
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There is a thread that I did a while back that will give you the composition of both the BP RB's and the 1902's.

One thing about the RB's to consider, regarding the springing of the breech blocks is the leverage that the center line of the cartridge has on the pins of the hammer and breech block. No amount of reduction of head space can cure that. While I don't think single firings of new cases will separate the heads, multi firing will. My 1897 in 45/70 at higher pressures (not unsafe pressures) will visibly stretch the heads of new cases so they are ruined after one shot.

Regarding gas escape, the breech block can be bushed so the firing pin can't escape and the BB can be drilled radially in three positions (top and both sides) to intersect with the firing pin for gas escape.

Lastly, DO NOT color case these actions as that is what (my opinion) caused that RB (discribed above) to open up.

Frank





  

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LTC B
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Re: 7.62 Nato in a Rolling block?
Reply #10 - Oct 15th, 2012 at 5:14pm
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drc wrote on Oct 15th, 2012 at 12:06pm:
I thought a roller was a pretty strong action (and they are within their intended purposes) until I saw that all that keeps them from peeling open is the relatively little bit of metal that is the bottom of the threaded area. As a total percentage of overall metal, there really is not much there.

We all know that metal tends to fail at its weakest point. Structurally that is the weakest point.


This is only true if the barrel fails first. The action shoulder that surrounds the barrel won't reinforce it unless it is a press fit. The threaded portion only needs to be thick enough to prevent separation by stripping with the barrel launching forward.

If the barrel fails in a split, it immediately loses all strength. Essentially no matter how thick the action is there, it's a gonna blow as well. The designers didn't make it thicker there as they didn't need to. 

I agree that when it does blow, it's pretty spectacular.
  
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drc
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Re: 7.62 Nato in a Rolling block?
Reply #11 - Oct 15th, 2012 at 10:12pm
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My thoughts about it are just my opinion about looking at the amount of metal there. 

Here is another roller that blew up with black powder

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on a better note, check out this roller

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it is pretty slick
« Last Edit: Oct 15th, 2012 at 10:21pm by drc »  
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