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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Schuetzen in Slovenia ? (Read 27138 times)
feuerbixler
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Re: Schuetzen in Slovenia ?
Reply #45 - Sep 30th, 2012 at 4:39am
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Just want to add a family story too: My grandpa was born in 1911 in Kattowitz, it was located in Upper Silesia in far east Germany in those days. 

But when he grew up, WWI came over Europe and following the Treaty of Versailles, the region should be added to Poland. Finally after three German and Polish rebellion-uprisings, two thirds of the territory were added to Germany and one third to Poland. The region which was added to Poland, was Kattowitz. So my Grandpa was now in school with Polish teachers and German language was forbidden. He had to made all the tests for the university entrance diploma in Polish language, which is completely different to German. But he learned fast and got all his diplomas. So also my family was concerned with this skirmish on territories and languages.

Then he went in the mid 1930s to Breslau, still a big German town in German-Upper-Salisia. He went to university for studying mechanical engineering. The family was living there on own property and he had a good job as an engineer. My mom was born there in 1939 and later my uncle. End of WWII, when the Russian Army overrun the region, the whole family had to leave the country. As a refugee family with nothing in their hands, they stranded in the mid 1940s in Bavaria. 
Huh

        Biggi.  Smiley

  

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Re: Schuetzen in Slovenia ?
Reply #46 - Sep 30th, 2012 at 4:23pm
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Biggi - great reading.

We spent the day in Bled.  ONE picture of armament is all I took - that's all there was in the museum in the Castle.  Attached.
WORK the next 3 days, maybe more exploration in Ljubljana later this week.

  

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Re: Schuetzen in Slovenia ?
Reply #47 - Sep 30th, 2012 at 4:24pm
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the castle at dusk from the town below.
  

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Re: Schuetzen in Slovenia ?
Reply #48 - Sep 30th, 2012 at 5:26pm
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Now thats a castle!

Great pictures.

   Joe.
  

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Re: Schuetzen in Slovenia ?
Reply #49 - Sep 30th, 2012 at 7:27pm
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You can't hardly swing a cat in much of Europe without hitting a castle.
  

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Re: Schuetzen in Slovenia ?
Reply #50 - Oct 2nd, 2012 at 6:59pm
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Green_Frog wrote on Sep 28th, 2012 at 7:29pm:


One thing I would like to have you comment on would be the development of the Schuetzenguilds and Schuetzenverein.  It seems like they were sort of local militia groups composed of "commoners" and tradespeople, encouraged by the local ruler so that a pool of trained men-at-arms would be available in time of war.  Is that about the way it worked?

Froggie


Okay, lets go on with the topic, try to answer FROGGIE's questions...

With my report about the development in Central Europe, I started after the Thirty Years' War in 1648. But for understanding the thingy with the schuetzengilde and schuetzenverein, we have to go far back in the past.

Between the year 500 and ca. 1550 we call it the middle ages. In those years, a lot of martial barbarian migrations came over Europe. So the knights of a sovereign's castle had to defend the castle and the estate of the sovereign. But the emerging towns in Central Europe had to defend their-selves. In the towns the inhabitants had some privilegs and freedoms. So the tradesmen, merchants and craftspeople started to establish the first schuetzengildes, to defend the town in case of aggression. 

The society in the towns of the middle ages consisted out of the nobles, the clergy-churchmen, the grand burghers and the poor bastards. In the countryside the farmers were living.

But who could be a member of a schuetzengilde of a town? Only a person who got the civil rights of that town. To get the civil rights, the following requirements were necessary:

• a certain age of life
• owning house and property in the town
• being a society member of the town
• paying taxes and charge
• willingness for military duty.

If a person got the civil right, he was also allowed to vote in the elections of the town council. Normally there were average 10% of a town with civil rights.


  

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Re: Schuetzen in Slovenia ?
Reply #51 - Oct 2nd, 2012 at 6:59pm
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Most of the time, tradesman and handicrafts people got the civil rights, so they were members of the urban schuetzengilds. So the established the schuetzengilde to practice together with the weapons. And they wrote down the first constitutions for their schuetzengilds. Often they invited the schuetzengilds of other towns to celebrate schuetzen festivities with a match. And the shot on king's targets. The shooter's king of a town was tax-free for one year and got some presents from the town council. And he had to hold a big party for all the members of his schuetzengilde.

This was the beginning of the shooting clubs in the Holy Roman Empire on North German Territories in Central Europe...

...in Bavaria, they managed it in a similar way. Munich had his "Schützen-Gesellschaft" (shooting society) since 1406, the still nowadays existing "Haupt-Schützengesellschaft", the "Main Shooting Society". They shot with crossbows and each Munich citizen had to practice at least three years each Sunday for being skilled to defend the town. The town council paid for the range, in the old days a place out of the town walls where the shooters could practice. And the town council gave some cents for the best shooters of each internal Sunday match. 

BTW: They called the internal Sunday matches "Vortel", we call it still nowadays like that in Bavaria. This word comes from the word "Vorteil", translated "advantage", because the shooters got an advantage in monetary form or in cloth or foodstuffs for the practice matches.

In the Bavarian countryside, the farmers and other better situated people were forced to be a member of a Landwehr-Infantery. They had to defend the countryside, when the barbarians came from the north to the catholic Bavaria. These landwehr-batallions exist till the mid of 1860s, then the Bavarian king established the compulsory military service for towns and countryside. The schuetzen-societies an Landwehr infantery were not anymore necessary.


  

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Re: Schuetzen in Slovenia ?
Reply #52 - Oct 2nd, 2012 at 6:59pm
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While in Bavaria the people liked always to shoot just for fun and having party, in Northern Territories it was always very military. And whole Bavaria had one king, who made a "royal privilege" in 1796 for the shooting societies. And he gave constitutions to all the royal privileged shooting societies. In those rules, everything concerning to the shooting society was fixed. For example, a royal society needed to have own property, and a range up to 300 meters. It was determined, who can get a membership, how to make the membership procedure and so on. 

BTW: The "Royal Privileged Shooting Societies" in Bavaria have still nowadays this constitution-book. And we are not a "club" or a "membership corporation", we are still a Royal Privileged Shooting Society! There are still more than 130 of such Royal Privileged Shooting Societies in Bavaria.

And a look over the fence to Austria: 

In Tyrol, King Maximilian allowed all Tyroleans in 1511 to go for shooting practice to be skilled defending the country. No matter if a guy was rich and important or a poor farmer in the mountains or only a servant. They have now since 500 years the tradition to shoot. In times of peace for fun and practice, in times of war to defend the homeland and the families. They were paramilitary organized.

In the region round Salzburg, it was more ruled like in Bavaria. The shooters had to defend the towns in case of emergency. But it has also a long and very nice tradition, which is nowadays fixed in the UNESCO list of cultural world heritage site.

  

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Re: Schuetzen in Slovenia ?
Reply #53 - Oct 2nd, 2012 at 6:59pm
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In the eastern part of Austria, in Niederösterreich (Lower Austria), there is a small town called Scheibbs. This town is famous for its Shooting-Target-Museum. And they have their schuetzen-society since more than 500 years - and was established for having fun and not to defend the town. Nearly all inhabitants of the town were shooters, so they were all very skilled. And when the Ottoman Empire ("Turkey Army") came over Austria in 1529, the Turk soldiers couldn't enter the town, because each inhabitant was a very good shooter and so they banished the Turks.
Wink  Grin

Back to the old days on German Territories. A big difference between the North German Shooters in their Schützengilds and the Bavarian and Austrian shooters with their Royal Shooting Societies since ever is, that the North Germans only shot from the bench and the Bavarians and Austrians shot offhand! The North Germans (Prussians!  Angry) were only interested in defending and making war, the Bavarians and Tyroleans liked it to be skilled in very good OH-shooting and having fun in real OH-competition.

When the Deutsche Schützenbund (German Shooting Federation) was founded in 1861 in Prussia (!), they wrote down that real shooting is only OH-shooting. The Bavarians weren't yet member of Germany, they came later (after the war of 1870/71) to Germany. And the Bavarians were very skilled in that real OH-shooting and were most of the time the better shooters at the Deutsche Bundesschiessen. Okay, also shooters from Frankfurt and Hannover established clubs since 1861, where only OH-shooting was allowed. So they made up leeway.

Shooting history all over Europe has completely different history. I have only a well informed view on Germany, Bavaria and Austria. But there are so much other aspects and regions with their own real interesting shooting history, e.g. Belgium in the region of Lüttich, were the famous weapons industry was located.

             Biggi.    Smiley
  

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Re: Schuetzen in Slovenia ?
Reply #54 - Oct 2nd, 2012 at 7:27pm
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Kermit1945 wrote on Sep 30th, 2012 at 7:27pm:
You can't hardly swing a cat in much of Europe without hitting a castle.


When I was in Germany and asked to see a castle it caused peoples eyes to rolling.  Same with Cuckoo clocks.  

Bavaria doesnt have real good castles. A bunch of newer palace castles made out of red brick. I saw some cool castles from the autobahn near Austria but we were going 220 KPH and couldnt stop.  The ones that looked interesting we couldnt go in. The wall around one was too high. Will have to go to Slovenia or Slovakia to see a real castle, I guess.  Roll Eyes Huh

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Re: Schuetzen in Slovenia ?
Reply #55 - Oct 2nd, 2012 at 7:33pm
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westerner wrote on Oct 2nd, 2012 at 7:27pm:

Bavaria doesn't have real good castles.
        Joe. 


I told you always, Bavarians are not a martial nation. So they converted in the last 200-300 years all the old castles to noble palaces. So we have got nice palace castles in Bavaria...

...the Bavarians are peaceable - we don't like wars. Live and let live!  Roll Eyes  Cheesy

                Biggi.   Smiley
  

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Re: Schuetzen in Slovenia ?
Reply #56 - Oct 3rd, 2012 at 3:05am
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Biggi,

Thanks for the great information once again!
Smiley


Joe,

Someday you should visit the Heidelberg Schloss. There is a keg in it that is over 9 yards long by eight yards in diameter. The original "big keg" was built in the castle in 1591, and the current keg in 1751. It holds over 55,000 gallons of wine, and every room in the castle was plumbed from the keg. 

Used to be that the wine growers had to pay part of their share of taxes by delivering wine to the castle for the big keg, and some poor schmuck had to take his turn once a year peddling the pump to make the wine flow to all those rooms and halls. 

Never did find out if he got to drink any of the wine while he peddled, but it was admitted that the growers didn't supply the best wine for the tax payments.   Grin

« Last Edit: Oct 3rd, 2012 at 3:18am by BP »  

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Re: Schuetzen in Slovenia ?
Reply #57 - Oct 3rd, 2012 at 3:34am
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Wow! That a lot of wine!   Shocked   Must be a big castle. 

Yes, the Bavarians love to party.  Here's my favorite party picture from my trip in April.  Dont be fooled thinking they dont take they're shooting serious, they do.  Wink

      Joe.
  

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Re: Schuetzen in Slovenia ?
Reply #58 - Oct 3rd, 2012 at 3:31pm
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Mmmmmmmmm, that foamy wine is the best  Roll Eyes

Frank
  

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Re: Schuetzen in Slovenia ?
Reply #59 - Oct 3rd, 2012 at 4:34pm
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frnkeore wrote on Oct 3rd, 2012 at 3:31pm:

Mmmmmmmmm, that foamy wine is the best  Roll Eyes

Frank


Huh? What you call "foamy wine", we call Weissbeer! Weizenbeer!   Wink  Grin 

And I love it... *yum*yum*

         Biggi. "Weisenheimer"  Wink
  

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