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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Schuetzen in Slovenia ? (Read 27082 times)
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Re: Schuetzen in Slovenia ?
Reply #30 - Sep 28th, 2012 at 6:05pm
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You forget heir Frank, Biggi is a woman, There will be a test!

Print Biggi's posts and keep them with you!

Biggi!  Tell us about the crossbow eagle shoot you went to this summer.  Did you take pictures?  

I'm currently teasing Mike Otterberg with the possibility of a wooden eagle match at Glasgow. Could do it on a tall pole. Told him it could also be a (maypole). Is that possible? 


        Joe.  

  

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Re: Schuetzen in Slovenia ?
Reply #31 - Sep 28th, 2012 at 7:29pm
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Wow, Biggi, just WOW!  That was indeed the most clearly stated coverage of the doings of Europe from the end of the Renaissance to the present (give or take) that I have ever seen anywhere.  Very well done, my friend.

One thing I would like to have you comment on would be the development of the Schuetzenguilds and Schuetzenverein.  It seems like they were sort of local militia groups composed of "commoners" and tradespeople, encouraged by the local ruler so that a pool of trained men-at-arms would be available in time of war.  Is that about the way it worked?

Froggie
  
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Re: Schuetzen in Slovenia ?
Reply #32 - Sep 28th, 2012 at 7:44pm
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Froggie, you are right. 

I should write something about the constitution and development of Schützengilden and Schützengesellschaften. I have a bit knowledge about that for German regions, but I have to read it up for the Austro-Hungarian empire. 

But this is also a longer story, I'll gonna write this later. Its already 1:45 AM here in Bavaria and I am a bit tired... Huh

         Biggi.   Smiley

  

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Re: Schuetzen in Slovenia ?
Reply #33 - Sep 28th, 2012 at 8:10pm
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Wow! Biggi I really enjoyed reading all of this stuff you did a wonderful job. My grandparents came for about the middle of most of that stuff that you were talking about, some from Bohemia, one from Lithuania, one from the Netherlands but I think that he was covering up something like that he didn't want to admit that he was 
German maybe because of WW1 and WW2. I don't know and never will and it doesn't matter now it's all history anyway. I can now understand why they may have left when they did in the early 1900's with all the wars and territory changes and no telling how many ethnic clashes that must have happened. 

Thanks again,

Richard
  
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Re: Schuetzen in Slovenia ?
Reply #34 - Sep 28th, 2012 at 8:45pm
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Ok, Joe. I copied and pasted the whole class. Bought a file cabinet and barely got it all in. I hope it won't be a closed book test  or i'm in trouble  Undecided

Biggi, one thing that stuck me as you were redrawing all those borders is, the languages must have been a challenge to keep up with. Can you tell us something about that? Where some lost and combined?

Frank
  

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Re: Schuetzen in Slovenia ?
Reply #35 - Sep 29th, 2012 at 2:38am
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.
frnkeore wrote on Sep 28th, 2012 at 8:45pm:

Biggi, one thing that stuck me as you were redrawing all those borders is, the languages must have been a challenge to keep up with. Can you tell us something about that? Where some lost and combined?

Frank


Frank, this is an interesting question . I didn't thought about that to explain.

In Germany or the former German Territories 500 years ago, the people spoke German. Also in Austria and in bigger parts of Czech (Böhmen & Mähren). But the German language has so much different dialects, that a guy from Hamburg and a guy from Bavaria or Vienna cannot understand each other, if they would speak their dialects. So they "invented" 500 years ago a language, called "Hochdeutsch" (High-German). This was a standard German language everybody should have learned, who wanted to write and communicate with other Germans from other regions.

But there were all the languages from all the countries, you still can see on the map of 2012. When those countries were belonging to  a big empire (like Germany or Austria-Hungary), the people had to learn a second language. The empire-country brought the culture to the foreign countries, but for their self-identification the people still used their origin language. All the authority stuff was to write and speak in the German language.

Still nowadays we have a lot of regions and countries in Europe, where they are used to speak two or three languages. In most of the border regions, its quite usual to speak the own language and the language of the country next to. 

I don't think there were lost a lot of languages in the last centuries. People did care always for their language, that it wont be lost. In east Germany, there is a German tribe living called the "Sorben". This is a populace which came 1400 years ago from eastern Europe to this place. And they still nowadays have an own language, which they learn in school aside German.
  

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Re: Schuetzen in Slovenia ?
Reply #36 - Sep 29th, 2012 at 2:38am
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And this Sorbian language has a lot of dialects. But the language still survived, all over the centuries. There were a lot of sovereigns all over Europe, who gave the order its forbidden to use the origin language. But this was nearly not possible to steal the people their linguistic identity. 

In Tyrol (Austria) and South Tyrol (Italy), a lot of people speak both languages: Austrian German and Italian. But they still have an own language in South Tyrol, called Ladinian. And this language is completely different to Italian or German. They have also different dialects in the Ladinian language. This language is teached at school, that it might not get lost. Makes a lot of identification to their homeland.

Look at Switzerland: Three official languages German, French and Italian. But also "Rätherromanisch", an old language which is the fourth official language used in Switzerland. Or Belgium: they have their Belgian language, Dutch and French and also Flemish language. Its a kind of mixture between Belgian and Dutch - but an official language.

But also in Yugoslavia, they created an official language for authority stuff and each part of the country kept the own language like Slovenian, Croatian, Macedonian, Serbian, and so on. People didn't lost their identity keeping their language. During the cold war, in the east European countries every student had to learn Russian, because Soviet Union was the big brother. But normally they hated it, to learn the language of the occupying country...

We Europeans are used to a lot of languages...   Roll Eyes

Oh, maybe its a little bit like in America, where the immigrants brought their language with them and still nowadays they can speak a funny kind of German or other languages, which were used 200 years ago in the country they came from. Language can survive!

         Biggi.   Smiley
  

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Re: Schuetzen in Slovenia ?
Reply #37 - Sep 29th, 2012 at 8:11am
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Just want to add something to the "settlement policy" round 1700 in South-East Europe. After a big war with the Ottoman Empire ("Turkey Army"), some regions of Austria-Hungary-Empire (today located in Romania, Hungary and Ex-Yugoslavia) were totally destroyed and burnt down.

So the Austrians required farmers from Germany. Normally in Germany, the firstborn son of a farmer's family got the farm and the properties. So the second and further sons didn't get anything, they could work as a servant.

The Austrians promised the poor people in Germany, that they can get own property in that burnt down region. Then they can re-cultivate the region and live as good farmers. So they did. Between 1692 and 1786, there was a settlement of 150.000 Germans in the region of Temesvar. A lot of new villages and towns were founded by Germans. And also the German language and culture was transported to that region.

The Austrian-Hungarians did this, because after a certain time, the farmers were able to pay taxes and the farmland was again good in shape to produce foods. 

An "exclave" of Germans is living there still nowadays. But they were always a minority and the were displaced by communists and church and this and that. A lot of them returned to Germany since WWII. But these who are still living there, they have a own "old German language" with Swabian dialect. 

There are a lot of regions all over Europe, where people from other countries were brought to. In German and Austrian territories, they couldn't get work or own property. So they made the adventure to immigrate governmental organized to Romania or Russia. 

          Historian-Biggi.   Smiley
  

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Re: Schuetzen in Slovenia ?
Reply #38 - Sep 29th, 2012 at 12:14pm
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I was fortunate to be in Tallinn, Estonia, right after the failure of the USSR and the re-established independence of Estonia. On one day I hired a young man--early 20's--who spoke excellent English, to show me around the city and tell me about its history. I asked him how many languages he spoke. He said he was most fluent in his native Estonian (a language the Russians tried to discourage) and Finnish because they are almost identical except for a few words. He spoke Swedish because many Estonians did as a result of having been overrun by the Swedes when they had an empire in the Baltic. Hard to think of the Swedes today as having that in their history. His English was excellent, having studied it in university for reasons of business and international trade. Languages he spoke less fluently he said were Polish, Latvian, German, and French. When I noted that he had neglected to include Russian, he dismissed that with, "Oh, well, of course. We were forced to study that in school."
  

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Re: Schuetzen in Slovenia ?
Reply #39 - Sep 29th, 2012 at 7:06pm
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Something interesting happened linguistically in poor little Moldova.  While their native language is a close variant of next door Romania, it was decided by the Communists that they should have a "different" language, so a new language was made up using their old Romanian-based words but written with the Russian (Cyrillic) alphabet! That was a mess, I was told by my Moldovan friend.   

A quick quiz;   
1)  What do you call someone who speaks 3 languages?   
2)  What do you call someone who speaks 2 languages?
3)  What do you call someone who speaks only 1 language?

Answers;
1)  Trilingual
2)  Bilingual
3)  An American!  Roll Eyes
  
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Re: Schuetzen in Slovenia ?
Reply #40 - Sep 29th, 2012 at 7:19pm
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C'est la vérité!
  

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Re: Schuetzen in Slovenia ?
Reply #41 - Sep 30th, 2012 at 3:32am
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Biggi, 

Have you heard reference to an area called Proscha? 

With the names of Neumann, Shuckschneider, Manz, and Shellabarger that are a part of my family tree, your historic ramble has been an especially relevant and enjoyable treat for me.
 
Many thanks to you for taking the time to present the information. 

  

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Re: Schuetzen in Slovenia ?
Reply #42 - Sep 30th, 2012 at 3:38am
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BP wrote on Sep 30th, 2012 at 3:32am:
Biggi, 

Have you heard reference to an area called Proscha?

With the names of Neumann, Shuckschneider, Manz, and Shellabarger that are a part of my family tree, your historic ramble has been an especially relevant and enjoyable treat for me.
 
Many thanks to you for taking the time to present the information. 



Proscha? Never heard about it, cannot find anything in maps or on the web.  Sad
Where is it located?

               Biggi.
  

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Re: Schuetzen in Slovenia ?
Reply #43 - Sep 30th, 2012 at 3:49am
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Biggi, 

It's an old reference on the back of one of my great grandparent Shuckschneider photo's. 

It reads: Nekla – Schroda, state: Proscha

Supposedly, my German Shuckschneider ancestors were from southern Prussia, and left for America before the borders changed and some areas were absorbed by Poland. 

I haven't been able to find any current reference to Proscha. 

  

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Re: Schuetzen in Slovenia ?
Reply #44 - Sep 30th, 2012 at 4:04am
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Aaahhh, I see. Now I know where it is located. It is in the far east of former Germany Territories. 

The regions of Ostpreußen (East Prussia), which were lost after WWI. But this region had always Polish roots. The German inhabitants were chased out of the region in the 1920s and the properties were given to Polish farmers. Since the treaty of Versailles and the speech "Fourteen Points" of Woodrow Wilson, the region was given to the new Polish state.

         Biggi.  Smiley 


  

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