Friend has an original Hepburn and we are wondering about a few things, as neither of us is knowledgeable about them.
When would s/n 2395 have been made?
Would an original Hepburn be safe to shoot in calibers like 40/82 and a fast-twist barrel?
The rifle is currently chambered in 45/70 and has a 20" long half-round barrel and excellent bore (light brown with no pitting - good rifling), minor surface rust and decent wood with a curved steel buttplate.
Did Hepburn offer any carbines with 20" barrels or is the barrel likely shortened from the original?
Any idea on a realistic value for same? I'll try to get a couple of pic's to post.
Thanks.

There were only about 11,000 Hepburns made and there are no records left on manufacturing dates.  It should work fine for a blackpowder 40 cal.  Like highwalls, many were converted to high pressure varmint calibers in the 50's and 60's.  Bob

Anything is possible like major corrosion in the first few inches of the barrel. Most likely a moron who didn't know what he had. 
     It kills me when I see Krag Rifles butchered to make so called hunting rifles, but at least these where made in the many thousands and aren't worth the kind of money a Hepburn is. If I had this butchered rifle I'd have the barrel replaced and just hold on to the old one. If you were really lucky you might even find an origimal Hepburn barrel.

As long as the receiver/breechblock look good there should be no problem making that Heppie into a 40-82. As mentioned above, they are inherently strong actions.

Nice to see that Hepburn brought back, especially one with double set triggers. As you know, Hepburns with double set triggers are quite rare.

SSS, If that Hepburn was mine, I'd have no qualms about repairing the original barrel, to keep the #s matching. Re converting it to double set triggers - single triggers can be tweaked to get very light & reliable trigger pulls/breaks. I have one that was converted to a .22 (probably in the 30s or 40s as a position/prone target rifle) that has a less than 1lb pull and very crisp break. Dave Crossno did the trigger job and also put an over-travel set screw in it. It has also been speed locked (most likely when it was converted) and goes bang in a hurry.

Wish you guys would stop telling me all this good stuff. You are going to force me to make an offer on the rifle. 

The before and after pictures of the Hepburn are interesting. If you needed a hunting rifle to go to the mountain, probably on horse back, which one would you take? We may cry, but you can sort of understand the thinking. That sawed off Hepburn would be a dandy on the hill.
Chuck

Marlin,
I agree with you. It is a beautiful rifle. The work John did to lengthen the barrel is amazing. How he handled the warpage and twisting from welding, then get a reline drill through is a mystery. The rifle is now very close to it's original condition, which is a good thing. Of course, None of us have ever modified a firearm to suit our current use.
Chuck

I think it's .010" to the foot, but not positive. You should have enough barrel on your gun to measure it 12" apart and figure the taper that way.

Wow! I don't think I've ever seem one split from the muzzle back. Wonder if there was any chance of an obstruction at the muzzle?

Schutzenbob wrote on Jun 30^th, 2012 at 1:58am:


Bob, 
I strongly suspect that the split was caused by one bullet lodging very near the end of the barrel and it being hit by another bullet being fired. Light loads are not always user or rifle friendly. 

However, without being present at the time and being unable to examine the rifle and remaining ammunition my opinion is purely supposition. But, a bullet jammed in the muzzle is a likely cause. Almost any long arm whether rifle or shotgun will split a barrel or worse if the muzzle is blocked by mud or snow, a very occasional but not fortunately a frequent occurance when many are out hunting during winter.

Harry

That's a beauty! Is that the barrel that came on it in the picture? Almost looks like the octagon portion is longer than usual from the few half octagon Rems. I've viewed. Most ended the octagon right at the end of the forearm cap if memory serves me. 
Edit-Did a quick search of my rem. reference pics and they did all end at the forearm cap. Maybe thhat Hepburn was a full octagon that someone cut to half octagon?

Vall,

My eyes seem to be telling me that the octagon portion is about the right length, and someone may have shortened the forearm.

Yes. That confirms what I posted above about the forearm wood being short. Am thinking it may have been done by the folks who shortened the barrel to give it a more proportional look. Short barrel doesn't look as short with the short forearm. When the refinish work is done will likely go for a proper forearm. The action on the rifle is as smooth as butter and locks up nice and tight. Will eventually have JT lengthen the short barrel and return it to the original 45-70 caliber that is marked on the barrel since the serial number on the receiver, lower tang and short barrel all match.

Thanks. How does one contact John King?

Thanks. I'll give him a call.

Does anyone know who might be able to remark the receiver with the correct lettering? Would like to get it remarked prior to having it re-case-colored. While most of the case-coloring is gone, the blue on the block and hammer are probably 95% or better. Under where the base of the Lyman tang sight was sitting the case-coloring is beautiful.

Per da Haas, I'll likely trim the trigger main-spring to get rid of the rebound feature. Can then lighten the trigger to a reliable 2#, or so. From what I've read and info from a friend who shoots a new C. Sharps Hepburn, the double-set triggers are not the way to go. 

Don't think I'll be cutting down the stock. Has $500 of very nice checking that I would hate to pay to replace. Will try my slip-on recoil pad to help with the curved buttplate. For now, will have the 29" barrel lined and trigger done and then shoot it. Will eventually go the whole 9-yards and have the lettering done, metal & wood refinished and original barrel lengthened and lined. All in good time.

Small world. Have been e-mailing back and forth with Dale trying to set up exactly what work to have done. The lined barrel will need to be blued. 

One question to all is on what side of the receiver is the Hepburn Patent 1879 info? Someone I was talking to said left side. Mine is on the right side below the lever. 

Same question on the serial number. My barrel and lower tang are both marked on the bottom with matching serial numbers. However, now that I've removed the stock I find that both the upper and lower tang are marked on the side (under the wood)  with serial numbers that match each other, but are about 600 different from the external serial numbers on the lower tang and barrel. Are the two serial numbers on the side of the tangs only to match up the receiver and lower tang while the external serial numbers are to match up the action and the barrel?

Last question (for the moment)........ hot-salt blue or rust blue for the barrel? What did Remington use originally? Big difference in cost.

I've got two Hepburns and the numbers on the sides of the tang don't match on either one.  
Is there really a need to eliminate the rebound feature of the firing pin as long as it's going to remain a black powder round?  That will eliminate the need of having to put it on half cock each time you reload.  Bob

Am told that lightening the trigger pull is a problem with a rebounding trigger. I want a crisp 2# trigger. The only work necessary to remove the rebound, per da Haas, is to remove 3/16" from the end of the hammer spring. Not a big deal and easily replaced, if needed.

Put in a lighter trigger spring and you should be able to get down to about 1 3/4lbs.  Keep the rebounding firing pin if it's not a hot rod.  Bob

Both of my Hepburns and all my Rollers have the patent dates on the left side of the receivers. Dale Woody recut or restamped all the receiver and barrel markings on one of my Hepburns when he engraved and re-cased the action.
The buttplates on Hepburns are not a bad shape, but they're so thin and small that heavy recoiling cartridges make for sore shoulders. when I did the restoration on the one Dale engraved I had Dave Crosno build me a stock set with a larger buttplate area to accept a Sharps buttplate. Even with warm .45-70 500 gr. bullets it's much more comfortable.
I built a trigger spring ffrom .050" piano wire on my Hepburn and the trigger pull is now about 2-2.5 lbs. My set triggers on the other Hepburn are wonderful! I've never adjusted them in all the years I've owned it, and they have seen a fair amount of shooting.

Not sure if there was a rhyme or reason, but I have one lettered on the right side under the lever like shown in your photo above. 

Note: Now shown in the photo below since you moved them.    

Nice pics, SSS.  That action looks to be in excellent shape.  Very little pitting.  You'll have to get the action annealed before any polishing can be done.  The two I've worked on were harder than a woodpeckers lips.  The only thing that touches them without annealing first are diamond files and the case is quite deep.  Let me suggest getting the receiver polished and ready and also fit your forearm.  Then have JT do the barrel work.  He can then send it back to you with the barrel screwed off so you can send the action out for engraving. Have the barrel and receiver colored to your choice and then reassembled.  Less chance for any dings or what not done to your engraving.

I polished mine out without annealing it, and I asked Dale if he wanted it annealed before he engraved it. He said he doesn't have any trouble engraving them without annealing. 
I asked for very simple engraving on mine, but gave Dale free run to do what he thought best. It was much more than I had planned, but I was happier with it when I saw his idea of what it should be.
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He also engraved the bottom of the trigger guard, and lower tang. And since he had the barrel, he did a bit there too.

marlinguy, very nice indeed! I gave Dale the same freedoms and I left it up to Dale. I suspect mine will look allot like yours. I am having Dale do an antique french grey type of finish that he recommends. All my past work on Ballards have been CCH'd and wanted to see what he recommends on the grey that he says is much more durable than other greys. 
SSShooter,  When I get mine back in a week or so, I will post before and after photos to give you an idea of what his work looks like on mine. Like Marlinguy, I polished mine without annealing and didn't have any problems. My Hepburn had been reblued over a pitted receiver so I had to draw file it and then polish to 600 grit. Of course, that took off all the original lettering. It also had a modern 30-40 Krag barrel on it. Took me several months to find an original 32", three digit serial numbered, part octagon, part round barrel, that I polished and rust blued. I refinished the original stock and forearm, but also had Treebone make fancy new stocks that I will send off to Dave Crossno later to fit. Putting a shotgun plate on it, probably similiar to what Marlinguy did. These projects can take a year or more to complete!
Richard

SSShooter wrote on Jul 13^th, 2012 at 5:55am:


I had Dale hot blue the screws and the hammer/block. I've seen mostly blued blocks and hammers on Hepburns, and I love the contrast myself.

Marlinguy,
I think our buttplates are almost identical, but I got mine from George at Treebone. I had some nice wood I had bought some time ago. I really like the skeletal plate and like to try one in a future project.
Richard

SSShooter,
Your original stock is nicely figured and I agree with you to keep it. It's nicer than mine and when you get all the years of accumulations off of it, I would bet it will look outstanding. The last several years I have been using Pilkingtons to refinish wood. Dave Crossno recommended it to me and it does great filling in and has a low to high gloss depending what you do with it. After using Pilkingtons I then just put on layer of wax for protection. I've included a couple of photos of the hepburn I did. The wood was dinged and soft from years of oil. Hot iron and damp cloth took most of the dings out and used Whiting to take oil out of it. I still need to do more wet sanding to finish it. I had Tim Smith-Lyon do the re-checkering as it was worn smooth. Had to do some filling with accra-glass around the buttplate as it was chipped, plus I filled the buttplate cavity with glass to keep more chipping from occurring.
Richard

Indeed, will definitely look at Plinkington. Need to get the other bits polished and whatever so can get off to Dale before heading out for some hard-earned vacation. Retirement is tough, but someone has to do it.

Here are a couple of pic's of my silhouette partner's C. Sharps Hepburn. I was mistaken in remembering it being in the grey, which his High Walls are. 38-55, 28" barrel and set-up for Shuetzen. Earl (that is not him in the pic) is terrific off-hand marksman after many years of flintlock competition. He generally shoots around 35/40 in our 200m all off-hand silhouette match. It is a very nice rifle and makes me wonder who does the engraving for C. Sharps. Earl did mention that it took two tries to get the double-set triggers so they would reliably work at about 8-10oz.

Am going to strip the wood on the stock without touching the ebony, which I also like. After removing the buttplate have found that the ebony is quite professionally installed. Will steam the larger of the few dings. Final finish will hand-rubbed BLO. Have always liked the result with same. Was thinking of the Pilkington, but, the $30 for 2oz sort of puts me off, as well. Probably will not put on a 'slick' finish, like poly.

Am undecided about the forearm. Not sure I like the steel end-cap as much as the ebony insert. Hmmm......

SSShooter,
In the mail today was my Hepburn. Dale Woody did the engraving and french grey. The grey was acheived by nickeling and then blasting. He also replaced the lettering that I had to remove when polishing as I had to draw file and sand out pits. I am very pleased with his work. The photos do not due justice to his work as the detail and stippling doesn't show up.

Photo of the other side of the Hepburn. I also asked Dale to blue the block, triggers, hammer and screws.

OK.... barrel was finished by John Taylor yesterday and Dale Woody now has the barreled action so can start his part of the restoration. Expecting the new silhouette stock from CPA in 3x wood next week. If all goes well, should be shooting it in the spring.

Hi Guys I am enjoying this Hepburn Thread, having acquired a great Match B Model.
There is a good Hepburn article in Guns Digest  2002 , that I photocopied with some decent trivia, including the fact that although there is no factory records, it is known that pre 1888 (receivership year) the patent info is stamped on the right side of action and barrel is marked "E. Remington and Sons ILION NEW YORK" and post 1888 the pat date is stamped on the left side of receiver, and barrel is marked REMINGTON ARMS CO. ILION N.Y. MINE is the latter with ser # 81XX , and I am guessing around turn of the century D.O.M.

CHEERS

Phil - sorry, but had not noticed your posts. 

Not sure what you mean by a 'soft barrel'?

Soft barrel, as compared to smokeless steel barrels from late 1800's and later. All early firearms from before smokeless powders were made of a softer steel, and will wear quicker when shooting jacketed bullets in them.
This doesn't mean they wont hold up to smokeless powder loads and cast lead bullets, but don't shoot jacketed, and keep the pressures to reasonable levels. I've got numerous blackpowder barreled singles and repeaters, and shoot them thousands of rounds with no problem.

40-82,

You are correct, I apparently have to many guns & not enough brain power left! Thanks for the correction.

There were so many different practices for serialization on old rifles, that it's hard to keep track of them all.
Some makers hardly marked anything, like Winchester. Others marked every little part with the serial number, or some portion of it, like Marlin Ballards. 
The practice of using assembly numbers or special order numbers was also used by some like Win and Rem, but not by many makers. 
Seems everyone had their own method, and many makers kept poor records. With the great books that have come out in the last decade it's sure made things easier, but it's also driven the prices up on these fine old guns as more people learn.

My Hepburn is in final stages of restoration (new wood, case-color and bluing) and am wondering about the firing pin dimensions. Does an original Hepburn have a large diameter firing pin/hole that should be bushed for safe shooting? Have never seen the issue addressed in writing for a Hepburn as have on most other old SS rifles.

Unless there is an extreme amount of wear on the firing pin there shouldn't be a need for a bushing. You might consider replacing the old one. Last year at Raton the pin broke on my 38-50 Hepburn as I was starting to shoot the pigs. Luckily, Dan Zimmerman had one in his shooting box. I installed the new one and was able to get right back on the line (using my alibi, of course) on the next relay. The firing pin he uses in his (DZ Arms) guns are an exact replacement.

Thanks. Think I'll order a spare from DZ Arms. 
Also, the only primers I've had problems with in shooting BPCR over the past 3-4 years are Win LR. Fed 215M and Rem 9 1/2 work like a champ in all my loads. I've had 6-8 Win LR misfires. That's enough for me.

Rather than case color, if you want to see the engraving, either nickle plate or better yet a french gray nickle plate finish really looks good.  Bluing and case coloring really hides engraving.

Thanks...... am quite pleased with what I've seen in the pic's. Think I may ask Dale to put a second fleur d'lis in the open space forward of the one he has all ready put on. Really looking forward to the finished product. 

Have a large Lee Shaver globe w/level for the front and a Hoke tange sight for the rear, along with my 28" MVA scope. Once I've done some shooting I'll have to decide between the two sets of sights. One will stay on the Hepburn and the other on the High Wall.

Got the Hepburn back from John Taylor (gunsmithing), Dale Woody (metal finishing) & Millard Hixson (wood finish & fitting) today. Beautiful work. Now have to see how it shoots. Replace out-of-focus a few posts below.
Here it is with the 28" MVA scope.

SSS,I'll second that !!!

3X wood from CPA Rifles. I'll have it checkered next year. Here are few more, clearer pic's (my photo skills are highly suspect - sorta like my shooting ).

Thanks. The gunsmithing by JT is excellent. Cannot tell it is a lined barrel. Same for the woodwork by MH. The engraving is excellent, as is the case-coloring by Classic Guns, LTD. However, the final assembly by DW, who did the engraving, resulted in a scratch in the side of the receiver as he neglected to space out the lever as requested and his bluing work on the barrel is very sub-standard. When brought these problems to DW's attention, his response was "F U". Great customer relations. JT & MH will be working on my Low Wall, but I won't be sending anything else to DW. Too bad, as his engraving is good.

Yeah, really. Was planning on sending DW the 25-20 Low Wall, but not now. Too bad for us both.

Lovely set-up ! I would be interested in benchrest group size