Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2  Send TopicPrint
Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Curtis and Harvey (Read 20975 times)
wildthing
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 83
Location: Oneida,wi
Joined: Jul 7th, 2010
Curtis and Harvey
Jul 1st, 2011 at 4:11pm
Print Post  
Today a friend of mine gave me an unopened five pound canister of Curtis and Harvey black powder. It says  number 1255 on it then in another spot it says  Austin Rifle .  There is no granulation on it such as F  FF or anything like that. Any ideas as to what this is? Round cardboard canister unopened. Is it worth anything as collector or should I just shoot it and be happy?  john
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
harry_eales
Ex Member


Re: Curtis and Harvey
Reply #1 - Jul 2nd, 2011 at 1:09am
Print Post  
Hello Wildthing,

The powder canister and contents if genuine Curtis and Harvey's No 6, was last made at Imperial Chemical Industries I.C.I Nobel Works at their Ardeer site in Scotland. This closed down in 1976 and since then all Black Powder used in Britain has been imported.

I have never seen it available for sale here in England in anything but 1 pound rectangular tins, red in colour with a white and black label specifying the manufacturers name and the grain granulation contained within which ranged from Fg to FFFFg, and that was in the 1970's. I haven't heard of it being sold in larger containers. However, ICI had many customers who no doubt purchased it in larger quantities, i.e. Ammunition manufacturers, various British Gunmakers who loaded their own ammunition for commercial sale, The British Government for use by the military and for some mining purposes. No doubt a lot went for export.

Your canister of powder is therefore at least 35 years old. I see no reason why the powder cannot be used unless the container is damaged or has been subject to damp conditions. 

There are no doubt Collectors of such canisters and many who would be interested in experimenting with the powder it contains, especially the Long Range (Creedmoor) target shooters. C&H No.6. was believed to be the best rifle and pistol black powder ever offered for sale anywhere in the world. It's a pity the grain size is not known the Long Range shooters would prefer to have Fg, FFg, or FFFg and not many shoot the latter granulation.

You could try and advertise in it suitable gun magazines or on several internet  forums asking for opinions as to value. 

The numbers could be a Lot or Batch Number, as for Austin Rifle I haven't a clue there.

Harry


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John Boy
Ex Member


Re: Curtis and Harvey
Reply #2 - Jul 2nd, 2011 at 11:19am
Print Post  
Wildthing, would be most appreciative if you would post a picture (front & back) of your C&H powder canister.  From a collector's viewpoint, both the 5# of powder in the can and the canister itself is highly collectible.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
wildthing
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 83
Location: Oneida,wi
Joined: Jul 7th, 2010
Re: Curtis and Harvey
Reply #3 - Jul 2nd, 2011 at 12:56pm
Print Post  
I have been trying to post a few pictures but my camers seems to be having problems. If I can get it up and running I will post a few . john
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Chuckster
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Online



Posts: 2311
Location: Colorado
Joined: May 15th, 2008
Re: Curtis and Harvey
Reply #4 - Jul 3rd, 2011 at 10:36pm
Print Post  
Old age and memories.  Seem to remember Curtis & Harvey and Austin Powder Company from the 1970's or 80's. Trying to find documentation, but no luck so far. Not sure it is the same stuff as the late 1800's. At least it did not make much of a dent in the GOEX muzzle loading powder market. A five pound container would not be common even for the later stuff.
Chuck  
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
J. pickup
Ex Member


Re: Curtis and Harvey
Reply #5 - Jul 3rd, 2011 at 11:21pm
Print Post  
Sometime in the 1970's the Dupont plant blew up and i rebember reading it took two years to repair.In the minetime, C & H powder was imported from england.I shot some in my cartridge guns and muzzleloaders.Good stuff, but not nearly as good as Col Meyer in the "Buffalo Harvast" said it was.It cleaned up a little easier, that's all.Not any more powerful.oh, when the dupont plant was rebuilt, it was sold to GOEX.A few years ago it was moved to Louisiania.And that's the story.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Chuckster
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Online



Posts: 2311
Location: Colorado
Joined: May 15th, 2008
Re: Curtis and Harvey
Reply #6 - Jul 5th, 2011 at 10:49pm
Print Post  
J. Pickup,
Thank you. The story makes sense. Glad to know my memory has not totally failed.
Chuck
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John Boy
Ex Member


Re: Curtis and Harvey
Reply #7 - Jul 7th, 2011 at 11:10pm
Print Post  
Here are pictures of the powder can that wildthing sent to me:
*  The powder is labeled Austin Powder Company, which was a US powder company from 1833 to an unknown date (possibly in the 1950's).  Here is their website ... (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
*  The number 1255 to me represents the lot being December 1955
*  The cardboard container has the mis-spelled wording, Curtis & Harvey.  What the relationship to C&H is speculation - possibly Austin was buying C&H powder and then selling it with an Austin Powder Company label.  I do know that if the lot number is correct, the real C&H was producing BP in Ardeer, Scotland until the late '60's when they were bought out by Nobel Industries LTD
*  The label says Rifle Powder.  Based on this wording, my guess is that it FFg powder


(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links) 

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

If the container was mine, I'd contact Austin Powder Co and ask them when they stopped making gunpowder - verify the 1255 and did they at any time buy C&H powder and relabel as theirs

Bottom Line, if I was Wildthing, I'd give his friend a couple bottles of very good scotch or whiskey  
« Last Edit: Jul 7th, 2011 at 11:41pm by »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John Boy
Ex Member


Re: Curtis and Harvey
Reply #8 - Jul 8th, 2011 at 12:23am
Print Post  
Quote:
Sometime in the 1970's the DuPont plant blew up and i rebember reading it took two years to repair.In the meantime, C & H powder was imported from england.I shot some in my cartridge guns and muzzleloaders.
Pickup, thanks for the post with your historical knowledge about DuPont and C&H being shipped into the US during the '70's. You kind of tie a couple of thoughts together that I have.  If I may, here's what I know:
*  DuPont was also cited at this time by the Federal govt for Restraint of Trade.  It was the end of DuPont's black powder business ... with possibly a minor twist - see below 
*  In the late '60's, I believe 1967, Nobel Industries Ltd bought out C&H who was making their powder in Ardeer, Scotland.  At this time, Nobel was the sole source for gunpowder in the British Isles
*  Sometime after C&H was bought out, Nobel started selling BP in the United States using a Canadian subsidiary called CIL, Canadian Industries Limited Ammunition Company.  The cans  said - Made in Great Britain. And the interesting part, on the Meteor can it said under C-L-I, Plattsburgh, NY
* I believe, but haven't been able to verify it ... that DuPont opened an office in Plattsburgh, contracted through Nobel to have DuPont salesmen sell the Meteor powder to retail stores in the US.  And further, I believe the Nobel Meteor powder to be C&H inventory or produced by C&H processes and employees

How did I speculate that DuPont was selling Nobel powder (possibly C&H) in the US?  Because there was a small gun store that went out of business due to death of the owner and the only powder he carried was DuPont and Meteor, with the Plattsburgh office address  
I was fortunate to obtain a nice inventory of the old DuPont and Meteor powder from the owners wife.  Here's what the Meteor looks like with 1973 lot numbers!... 

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
 
So the powder trail was:  Ardeer, Scotland - Canada - US
« Last Edit: Jul 8th, 2011 at 12:30am by »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
wildthing
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 83
Location: Oneida,wi
Joined: Jul 7th, 2010
Re: Curtis and Harvey
Reply #9 - Jul 8th, 2011 at 1:11pm
Print Post  
Thank you John boy for your knowledge and willingness to pass it along. Every one on this fourm has been very helpful in passing along their knowledge of guns and reloading.Again thankyou for the help. john
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John Boy
Ex Member


Re: Curtis and Harvey
Reply #10 - Jul 8th, 2011 at 5:43pm
Print Post  
John, wondering if my PM got through to you?
Might add, as an overall statement, the ASSRA forum is an excellent source of factual information.  The folks here are a great crew and intelligent as not get out.  Many individuals have helped me relating to my question posts.  I try to logon every day because the posts are like a box of Godiva premium chocolates!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
StrawHat
Junior Member
**
Offline



Posts: 96
Location: NE Ohio
Joined: Oct 30th, 2008
Re: Curtis and Harvey
Reply #11 - Jul 10th, 2011 at 6:18am
Print Post  
I have no info on C&H but The Austin Powder Company at one time was in Oakwood Village, Ohio, just down the road from where I live.  They are still in business, but no longer in Oakwood, nor do they produce black powder.

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
  

Any unshared knowledge taken to the grave is wasted.

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
xtimberman
Full Member
***
Offline



Posts: 172
Location: N. Texas
Joined: Mar 26th, 2010
Re: Curtis and Harvey
Reply #12 - Jul 13th, 2011 at 6:08pm
Print Post  
I believe that this interesting thread (with photos!) has answered some questions about this Hodgdon-marketed black powder. The can is painted a different color, but otherwise looks identical to the orange Meteor one. I had always thought that the trail led back to C&H somehow.

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

In the 1970s, my most convenient black powder supplier handled this brand exclusively. I preferred it to the Dupont/GOEX of that time....but perhaps the much cheaper price appealed to my skinflint nature. Nonetheless, I shot up a lot of it and still have a little bit left. 

xtm
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John Boy
Ex Member


Re: Curtis and Harvey
Reply #13 - Jul 18th, 2011 at 7:59pm
Print Post  
Okie Dookie - Wildman sent me 195.8 grains from the 5# container of the Austin Powder Company.  It came today in the mail - Thanks Kindly, John

Off to the basement:
Density Test
0.998g/cc
Observation:  The powder was processed with a good 'sporting powder' number of wheel turns to compact the basic ingredients.  The other 2 processes that compact the powder for a good density are the Powder Pressing and Polishing Processes

For Comparison:
Weight = g/cc
.902      Goex      Cartridge      
.912      DuPont      FFg      
1.134  Diamondback      FFg      (01-2127
1.124  Diamondback      FFFg      (01-3309)
.919      KIK  FFFg      
.941      Goex  Cowboy      
.905      Goex      FFg      02 11 05MY23B
.944      Goex      FFFg      99JY02C
.925      Goex  FFFg      03 46 07NO03B
.916      Goex  FFFg      03 56 08NO02 B
.944      Meteor  FFg      
.970      Meteor  FFFg      
.972      Goex Express      FFg      
.978      Schuetzen      FFFg      
.992      KIK      FFg      
1.094 KIK      Fg      2010
1.05      KIK      1.5Fg       2010
1.06      KIK      FFG      2010
1.023  Swiss      FFFg      
1.026  DuPont      Fg      
1.027  Skirmish      Fg      
1.044  Swiss      1.5Fg      
1.049  Swiss      FFg      
100 cc volume pan weighed      

Continued Next Post - Max 2000 characters per post


  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
John Boy
Ex Member


Re: Curtis and Harvey
Reply #14 - Jul 18th, 2011 at 8:17pm
Print Post  
Austin Powder Test - Continued
Grain Ratio Test - using certified micron size laboratory sieves
10 mesh - No Hold
20 mesh - 40.25% Hold
30 mesh - 58.8% Hold
40 mesh - 1.02% Hold
50 mesh - Trace

Observation:   The Austin ‘Rifle Powder’ in my opinion is FFFg grade powder.  Evidenced with only a 1% 40 mesh, the screening process of the powder was done very well.  Note that the 40 mesh ‘fines’ are very minimal 
For Comparison:
Goex 2Fg 
20 mesh - 79.2% retained 
30 mesh - 20.8% retained 
Source: Dutch Bill 
Goex 3Fg 
20 mesh - trace retained 
30 mesh - 70.8% retained 
40 mesh - 26.2% retained 
Through - 3.0% 
Source: Dutch Bill 
Goex Cartridge – (05-37) 02OC07B 
12 mesh – 0.62% retained 
14 mesh – 0.03% retained 
20 mesh – 97.54% retained 
30 mesh – 01.70% retained 
Through – 0.11% 
14.45oz 
Goex Cowboy 
20 mesh - 32.9% retained 
30 mesh - 64.9% retained 
Through - 2.2% 
Source: Dutch Bill 
Goex Express FFg– (02/17/05DE12B) 
12 mesh – Trace retained 
14 mesh – 0.35% retained 
20 mesh – 89.59% retained 
30 mesh – 9.47% retained 
40 mesh – 0.22% retained 
Through – 0.37% 
15.9oz 
Swiss 1.5 (250.205) 
12 mesh – 0.27% retained 
14 mesh – 5.24% retained 
20 mesh - 92.59% retained 
30 mesh - 0.10% retained 
Through - 0.72% 
14.57oz 
Meteor FFg (73 AP 1510 S 2) 
Made by Nobel - Imported by CIL and Distributed by DuPont 
20 mesh - 87.37% retained 
30 mesh - 11.94% retained 
Through - 0.69% 
17.34oz
Swiss FFg (250.504) 
Partial Can 
20 mesh - 76.16% retained 
30 mesh - 23.50% retained 
Through - 0.34% 
11.64oz 
Schuetzen FFg (16.01.2006 ... WP-06A0007) 
Partial Can - Socked 
20 mesh - 91.48% retained 
30 mesh - 8.52% retained 
8.34oz 
Schuetzen FFFg (08.06.2005 ... WP-05F0031) 
20 mesh - 9.21% retained 
30 mesh - 87.68% retained 
40 mesh - 2.53% retained 
Through - 0.58% 
14.61oz 
DuPont FFg (71JU04H) old '71 vintage 
14 mesh - Trace retained 
20 mesh - 86.94% retained 
30 mesh - 12.65% retained 
Through - 00.41% 
14.59oz
Continued
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 
Send TopicPrint