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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Scoring in Bavaria: Quality not Quantity of Bull's (Read 12209 times)
feuerbixler
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Re: Scoring in Bavaria: Quality not Quantity of Bull's
Reply #15 - Jun 6th, 2011 at 4:48am
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Okay, it seems to be really interesting for you to know how it works. I'll try to explain the principle how the measuring devices work. Hope you'll understand it, because I don't know if I find the perfect words in English for the parts...

Here I show another measuring unit from the manufacturer "Josef Feichtmaier of Geiselhöring". It is approx. 60-70 years old, one of the last constructed devices. After WWII they weren't anymore demanded. There were enough devices in the shooting clubs and schuetzen societies of former decades. If you don't throw it down, it will work for ever without problems. 
That's German engineering! *cheekysnicker*  Wink  Wink

The measuring step by step in details:

Step A: One places the paper-bull carefully with the impact hole onto the mandrel without perishing the hole.

Step B: Afterwards one places the "holder" (#1) onto the mandrel. The holder has a cone-shaped pin at the bottom. With this pin the paper-bull is centered on the mandrel.

Step C: Inside the holder, there is a spiral spring, so that one can pull it down to hold it in tension.
Afterwards the dial indicator (#3) is set to "zero". The paper-bull will be turned carefully and slow by the holder. 
The measuring starts, when the "highest point" of the out of center turning paper bull touches the slide gauge (#2) towards the dial indicator.

Step D: At the dial indicator there are two scales to read the measuring. 
On the horizontal scale (#4) one can read out the "100's". One can see that the needle is very short just under the 200, it's only shown one entire "100".

Step E: On the round scale (#5) one can read out the detail value. A "92" is indicated. Both values (100 + 92) are added to the sum of 192, this is a so-called 192-Teiler.

The impact hole is 1.92 millimeters (0.075 inches) out of total dead center of the paper card bull-target.

I hope you understand my description of that particular matter.  Roll Eyes  
If there are any questions, don't hesitate to ask.

         Biggi.
  

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feuerbixler
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Re: Scoring in Bavaria: Quality not Quantity of Bull's
Reply #16 - Jun 6th, 2011 at 12:42pm
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Here are some additional pics of that holder.

It has at the bottom three or four peaks (this one has four) to grip into that paper-card of the bull-target. This way there is no danger that the holder slides over the paper-card while turning it with the holder on the mandrel. 

The peaks make very very small holes into the paper-card bull-target. But this doesn't matter, because one can see that this bull's eye is already measured. And its only allowed to measure a bull one single time, if there is no reclamation from the shooter. If there is a reclamation, then a jury convenes to discuss, if the bull has to be measured a second time, in case of doubts. 
Huh  Undecided

With that spiral spring inside, its possible to hold it down. The cone shape centers the impact hole onto the mandrel. It's cone shaped because one can measure different calibers. The Kleinkaliber .22 holes also like the 8.15 target-rifle holes. 

                   Biggi.    Smiley
  

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John Boy
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Re: Scoring in Bavaria: Quality not Quantity of Bull's
Reply #17 - Jun 6th, 2011 at 2:01pm
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Biggi - Thanks Kindly for the Teiler bull's eye measuring machine picture details and the words how it operates.
It all comes together in my head now and understand the measurement procedures clearly ...
Quote:
And we have also a view on the bull's eyes. We do not count the quantity of bulls, we look to the quality! The shooter who's impact is closest to death center of the bull-papercard will win the bull's eye ranking.

On our black targets, we have on the "10" a colored papercard sticked on with glue. So we can release it later in the scoring-office and measure how far (in millimeters) the impact is away from the total center of the papercard-bull.

With the complete center being 5.cm/1.96" and the inner being 2.5cm/0.98" ... I also understand now why the diopter pinhead foresight on Schuetzen rifles is so darn small.  When I removed the blade foresight on my rifle and replaced it with the pinhead, was totally amazed at the accuracy one could obtain if they were a skilled offhand shooter

Again - a very informational and educational thread!
  
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feuerbixler
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Re: Scoring in Bavaria: Quality not Quantity of Bull's
Reply #18 - Jun 6th, 2011 at 2:19pm
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Hi JohnBoy. Thx for plaudit, I like to explain that old German shooter's stuff...

...are all my translated technical terms correct? Because one cannot find all the words in a dictionary. Please correct me, if you would name it different.

Hhhmmm, such a 5cm (1.96") paper-card bull-target one cannot see on the distance of 100 meters. And in the old days, the distance for shooting was between 130 meters and 300 meters.

One can only see the "black mirror" of the target. But at different ranges, they had also in the old days different target sizes.

And so the "professional shooters" had different pinheads in the pocket, to find the best one for the used targets at the current match.

Last Saturday I shot a match on 120 meters with small targets. The pinhead sight of my rifle covered exactly the mirror of the target. At other ranges, other distances and other targets, I have some problems with the size of the head of my pinhead...
Sad

              Biggi.        Smiley
  

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Re: Scoring in Bavaria: Quality not Quantity of Bull's
Reply #19 - Jun 6th, 2011 at 6:31pm
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Hi JohnBoy.

Just remembered that they had also turnable foresights in the old days.

Instead of changing the complete foresight, they had the possibility to choose the desired kind which was convenient for the current target.

                  Biggi.   Smiley
  

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John Boy
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Re: Scoring in Bavaria: Quality not Quantity of Bull's
Reply #20 - Jun 7th, 2011 at 9:52am
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Biggi, Good Morning.
Have no fear that your command of the English language and wording is 'Spot On'.  All the explanations have been clear and very understandable.  Please don't ask me to translate it back into German.  It would be a disaster!  Grin

Several points come to my mind reading your posts on this thread:
*  Would the several Schuetzen shooting societies in the US adopt the scoring standards used by the southern societies in Germany?  Accuracy and tradition continue in Europe but yet are not the same in the US 
*  Being new to Schuetzen rifles, specifically the Aydts, the Mausers and Martini's ... there is a major lack of the different available accessory sights for purchase here in the US.  In my case, just to find a pinhead insert to replace the blade on my Type II was an extreme effort.  I know of only one source, Bill Loos.  When I contacted him, he only had 2 pinhead and no tunnel foresights.  His parts inventory is limited.  As for the turn-able sight - your pictures are a first!

Question to ASSRA forum members - who are the contacts in the US that have Schuetzen replacement parts, sights and accessories available for sale... Aydts - Mausers and Martinis?
  
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Re: Scoring in Bavaria: Quality not Quantity of Bull's
Reply #21 - Jun 7th, 2011 at 10:13am
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Good Morning JohnBoy. In Bavaria it' already late afternoon...

Makes me a kind of proud that my technical English is understandable.  Cool  Smiley 

In Germany one cannot buy any of these old parts for Aydts or Martinis. There is nothing left from the old days. Nothing is produced since the 1920's, maybe early 1930's.

If we need a spare-part, we have to make it on our own. One needs a talented precise mechanic guy who likes to tinker fitting parts. Because all the parts are soooo different, also in the old days it wasn't possible to buy something out of the shelf - in the most cases. 

And if something is broken today, one has to bring the defect part to the gunsmith (including the whole rifle) that the gunsmith can work on a replacement part which fits exactly. The same with those Aydt springs. They are nearly all completely different. If you find a gunsmith who makes one for you, let make three at this time. Maybe you'll never find again a person, who wants to make an Aydt spring...
Shocked  Undecided

Last week at a match, the firepin of my Martini was broken. And I needed the rifle again five days later. So I found at that match an old man, a nice schuetzen fellow, who was able to make exactly that needed broken firepin in a very short time. So I got back that stuff and won the next match.  Cheesy

That's the only way it works with those old rifles. You really need fellows who can help...

                   Biggi.  Smiley
« Last Edit: Jun 7th, 2011 at 11:03am by feuerbixler »  

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Re: Scoring in Bavaria: Quality not Quantity of Bull's
Reply #22 - Jun 7th, 2011 at 7:50pm
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Okay, back to the topic. We are not ready yet!  Grin  Grin  Grin

An experienced helper in the scoring office needs less than a minute to measure the bull correctly. This job should be performed always by the same person over the whole match. Because if its carried out by the same person, the pressure with the hand is always the same and also the momentum and speed while turning slowly the paper target on the mandrel. This guarantees the equality of the whole amount of measured paper bulls.

This way the shooters at the match know, that everything will be okay with the measuring of the bulls. Working in the scoring office at a match, that's a job full of honor! Only if a fellow has a very good reputation and if he is popular with a good character, then he will be appointed to that post. This concerns not only for measuring the bulls, also for counting the rings. In the old days, only the shooting society's presidents or other honorable persons were allowed to measure the bulls and count the rings!

How sad, yesterday a very good fellow and one of our best scoring office helpers passed away by a heart attack. Don't now how to run the next matches...
Cry

We have a lot of different sizes with those papercard bull-targets. The normal German 100 meter bull has 5 centimeters. At some ranges they use smaller (traditional) targets with corresponding smaller bulls. Last weekend in Maishofen/Austria we had targets with a 3.5 centimeter bull's eye. That's really small!

But there are also larger bulls, which cover the "10" and the "9" on the target. The papercard bull's diameter there is 10 centimeters. They use sometimes such large bulls on the long distance ranges on 150 meters. 

The pic shows different targets of different ranges in different regions. And a typical kind of eagle target which is used for the annual king's target shooting on 10cm/3.8" papercard bulls. 

            Biggi.   Smiley
  

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Re: Scoring in Bavaria: Quality not Quantity of Bull's
Reply #23 - Jun 9th, 2011 at 4:10pm
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HHhhhmmmm, at the moment I don't know, if there is still interest in reading something about the old German ways to measure bulls?!?! No feedback anymore?
Roll Eyes Undecided

Okay, I may go on, there are still some aspects to explain.

Larger papercard bulls are made sometimes out of thin papercard. Also small papercard bulls may get a buckle during releasing it from the target. If this happens, it wouldn't be possible to make a correct measuring. So they invented small plates out of metal or duroplastics, where one can insert the bull exactly for the measuring procedure.

One has to place the impact hole over the slot in the template. Then the mandrel pricks still through the hole. The edge of the papercard bull fits perfect into the recess. And the measuring works much better round the template's edge. 

In the both examples shown above, there are a couple of templates for .22-small-bore and also airrifle and zimmerstutzen papercard bulls. Its also possible to measure 5 centimeter bulls, but at the moment I have no templates for those.

               Biggi.     Smiley

  

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Re: Scoring in Bavaria: Quality not Quantity of Bull's
Reply #24 - Jun 9th, 2011 at 7:50pm
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feuerbixler wrote on Jun 5th, 2011 at 6:43am:
Oh sorry, a pic with an old German bolt-action schuetzen-rifle... but they had it in the old days. So it's allowed in the traditional matches also nowadays!


What!? Are you people insane? From what I hear around here, allowing old bolt single-shots will not only cause your womenfolk to become barren, it will also cause the sky to fall. You have been warned!
« Last Edit: Jun 9th, 2011 at 8:19pm by KWK »  

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Re: Scoring in Bavaria: Quality not Quantity of Bull's
Reply #25 - Jun 10th, 2011 at 3:59am
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The rifle in question is probably a Kessler full stocked Martini style rifle. 

Those Germans are to smart to shoot a bolt action.  Roll Eyes


            Joe.  Smiley
  

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Re: Scoring in Bavaria: Quality not Quantity of Bull's
Reply #26 - Jun 10th, 2011 at 11:34am
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Okay, I know the Germans are smart...  Wink    ...for sure...  Cool

...but maybe that bolt-action rifle was brought by an Austrian shooter to that match?!?!    Grin  Grin  Grin 

Detailed pics of that firerifle-shelf and a bolt-action rifle pic out of an old-day's catalog.  Roll Eyes

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Re: Scoring in Bavaria: Quality not Quantity of Bull's
Reply #27 - Jun 10th, 2011 at 12:04pm
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The pictures show a 98 Mauser #5 and one I owned. Highest known serial number seen so far is #10
  
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Re: Scoring in Bavaria: Quality not Quantity of Bull's
Reply #28 - Jun 10th, 2011 at 12:17pm
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Trying once more, this is the #5 98
  
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