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feuerbixler
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Scoring in Bavaria: Quality not Quantity of Bull's
Jun 3rd, 2011 at 3:54pm
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I'm often asked, how we score our targets and bull's eyes in Bavaria. This is completely different to your American matches. So I want to explain it. Hope you'll understand it... 
Roll Eyes

At our feuerstutzen-matches, we have series with five shots on a ten-ring-target. So the shooter may get 50 rings on one target. We don't count all shot targets together (except the Bavarian championships). We observe each single target.

The shooter can buy as much targets he wants. Okay, some rankings are limited, there one can buy only a certain number of targets. But normally one can buy targets and targets as far he has pocket-money and ammo. 

If the shooter Müller Max bought six targets and hit series like:  48-45-44-44-43-42 he will be near the top of the ranking. The first view is on the best serie, the second view on the second serie. In a ranking it would look like that:

(1) Schmid Tom   48-47-40-38-31-29 
(2) Müller Max   48-45-44-44-43-42
(3) Huber Sepp   47-45-44-44-42-41 
(4) Lange Hans   45-45-45-45-41-40

In this sample you can see, that Müller Max would have the better six targets in total (summation of all six targets), but the first in the ranking "Schmid Tom" has the better second serie. So he got the first position, even though his total rings are worse. But he made two very good 5-shot-series!

And we have also a view on the bull's eyes. We do not count the quantity of bulls, we look to the quality! The shooter who's impact is closest to death center of the bull-papercard will win the bull's eye ranking. 

On our black targets, we have on the "10" a colored papercard sticked on with glue. So we can release it later in the scoring-office and measure how far (in millimeters) the impact is away from the total center of the papercard-bull.

And so we get another ranking (aside the ring ranking) with quality of bull's eyes. This is a typical scoring in Bavaria and Austria since decades. In northern Germany they dont have that.

Biggi.  Smiley
« Last Edit: Jun 3rd, 2011 at 4:22pm by feuerbixler »  
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doubs43
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Re: Scoring in Bavaria: Quality not Quantity of Bull's
Reply #1 - Jun 3rd, 2011 at 6:21pm
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That's quite an interesting method of determining the position of the shooters. An old adage among our club shooters is: "If everyone shoots the same targets by the same rules, no one has an advantage." While your scoring method may be different, if everyone shoots by the same rules, it's completely fair.

Thanks for the explanation.
  
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feuerbixler
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Re: Scoring in Bavaria: Quality not Quantity of Bull's
Reply #2 - Jun 3rd, 2011 at 6:29pm
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I think it's not always completely fair. If we have a match with "unlimited target purchase", the shooters with the most pocket-money, the most ammo and the most time can go the whole day to the range and shooting, shooting, shooting until he gets very good scores.

So sometimes I prefer the matches witch "limited targets". This means each shooter may only shoot six or ten targets. So nobody "can buy" the award or the prize. 

And if we have matches lasting two or three days, one can have a lot of luck with the sunny weather one day and the other shooters the next day have wind and rain.

               Biggi.    Smiley
  
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John Boy
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Re: Scoring in Bavaria: Quality not Quantity of Bull's
Reply #3 - Jun 4th, 2011 at 10:53am
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Biggi, if was to buy 10 targets for a match ... must each target be shot with the same rifle, same caliber and same ammunition?
  
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feuerbixler
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Re: Scoring in Bavaria: Quality not Quantity of Bull's
Reply #4 - Jun 4th, 2011 at 8:49pm
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Hi John Boy.

Just came home from a very nice match in Austria. We had our annual Feuerstutzen-match at "Schloss Kammer" in Maishofen. Sunny day, all friends there, great shooting day, very good results...
Cool

You would have to shoot all the bought targets with the same caliber. Because our matches are only for the old German caliber 8.15x46R. We do not have such a big variety of calibers and bullets like you have in US. 

In the old days in Germany, when the shells and ammo for the target rifles were normalized only for the caliber 8.15x46R, nearly everybody re-barreled and re-chambered his rifle. So this went to the official Schuetzen-rifle and these were only permitted with pure lead bullets.

So everybody comes with his old target rifle to the match. Here you can see a shelf with the target-rifles today at lunch break. Rifles had their rest time, shooters were sitting in the beer-garden!  
Wink Cheesy Grin

                 Biggi.   Smiley
  
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Re: Scoring in Bavaria: Quality not Quantity of Bull's
Reply #5 - Jun 4th, 2011 at 9:38pm
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Biggi,
Is there anyone that still builds these rifles or parts for them?

Frank
  
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feuerbixler
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Re: Scoring in Bavaria: Quality not Quantity of Bull's
Reply #6 - Jun 4th, 2011 at 9:52pm
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I know a gunsmith who built true to original replicas. Very nice but very expensive. 

One can order a high quality reproduction at the gunmaker "Kuchenreuther" in Cham/Bavaria. But its too expensive.

A company in Suhl / Thuringia made such rifles without any carving or engraving in the years 1999/2001 in a good quality. Not sooo expensive, but also a shelf-warmer.

Nobody wants to buy replicas, because there are enough original old target rifles on the market. The US army didn't destroy or kidnapped all of them after WWII. We are proud of our German originals and we love to shoot them successful in our matches.
Cool Smiley

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John Boy
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Re: Scoring in Bavaria: Quality not Quantity of Bull's
Reply #7 - Jun 4th, 2011 at 10:14pm
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Quote:
Here you can see a shelf with the target-rifles today at lunch break. Rifles had their rest time
The quality - difference in butt stocks is very interesting and the quantity ... One Beautiful Sight!
  
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Re: Scoring in Bavaria: Quality not Quantity of Bull's
Reply #8 - Jun 4th, 2011 at 10:24pm
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Here's a closer view for you!   Smiley

           Biggi.
  
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Re: Scoring in Bavaria: Quality not Quantity of Bull's
Reply #9 - Jun 4th, 2011 at 11:21pm
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Uh-Oh, Are we in trouble?  Smiley Is the second rifle from the right a bolt-action?
Chuck
  
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Re: Scoring in Bavaria: Quality not Quantity of Bull's
Reply #10 - Jun 5th, 2011 at 6:43am
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Undecided  Oh sorry, a pic with an old German bolt-action schuetzen-rifle... 

...but they had it in the old days. So it's allowed in the traditional matches also nowadays!  Grin

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Re: Scoring in Bavaria: Quality not Quantity of Bull's
Reply #11 - Jun 5th, 2011 at 8:06am
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But now back to the topic. I wanted to explain now, how we measure the QUALITY of the bull's eyes.

After the match, there are a lot of targets in the scoring office. If it is a match with unlimited target-purchase, there might be hundreds of targets. This is a lot of work to count the rings and measure the bulls. Normally one needs three or more helpers for that work and they are busy the whole match day.

When the first targets come in, they start their work. For each shooter we have a form sheet (it's called "Bolette"), where are the entry fields for the results. The guy who has to count the rings of the (for example 10 targets) of the shooter fills in the number with a pencil in the fields.

Then he releases the paper-card bulls from the target. If there are impact holes in (means: the shooter hit the "10") he writes the start-number of the shooter on the backside. Only the number and never the name. Normally the guys in the scoring office don't know the name, it shouldn't become obvious while scoring and measuring the quality of bulls.

The next person in the scoring office gets the paper-card-bulls for measuring them. Therefor we have the good old measure units from the old days. These are mechanical devices to measure how far away is the impact of the bullet from the dead center of the paper-card.

The dimension unit for that we call "Teiler". For instance, if the middle of the impact is 10 millimeters far away from the dead center, it is a 1000-Teiler. A totally dead-center-shot would be a 0-Teiler. A 624-Teiler would be 6.24 millimeters out of center.

And if the bulls are measured with such an old bull's eye scoring machine, they are also written on that form sheet. In the last step of the scoring office's work, the third person fills the ring and bullet results in a special computer software. With this software one can generate a lot of different result lists.
  
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Re: Scoring in Bavaria: Quality not Quantity of Bull's
Reply #12 - Jun 5th, 2011 at 8:08am
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The result of the bull's eye ranking would look like that, if always the three best bull's of each shooter are measured:

(1) Lange Hans    117,8 T /  712,3 T /  842,5 T
(2) Schmid Tom    286,5 T /  827,4 T / 1285,8 T
(3) Müller Max    328,1 T / 1209,6 T / 1435,4 T  
(4) Huber Sepp   1009,5 T / 1317,8 T / 1710,7 T

The "T" stands for "Teiler" and its measured in "thousandth part".

Its nearly impossible, that two shooters have exactly the same bull's eye. But it might happen, I have seen it already! So we have the second and the third Teiler also measured for bringing them in a correct ranking.

Here is a pic of such an old bull-scoring-machine. This one might be nearly 100 years old. There were a lot of different kinds and types on the market in the old days. Very tricky devices made by clock-makers or precise-mechanicans.

This is the quite normal way to measure the "Teiler" (means the quality of a bull's eye) since decades. But it's only practised in south Germany (specially Bavaria) and Austria, as far as I know. Very very rarely in northern Germany. And the most of the immigrants who came 150 Years ago from Germany to America, they came from northern Germany (Prussia) and not so much from the south (Bavaria). 

So the rites and old customs of the Bavarian and Austrian shooters were not practised in America in the old days. Therefore I guess you dont know that tradition...

...but if you know that or you have already read some historical stuff about that in US, please let me know! Thx! 

          Biggi.   Smiley
  
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John Boy
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Re: Scoring in Bavaria: Quality not Quantity of Bull's
Reply #13 - Jun 5th, 2011 at 10:46pm
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Biggi, my good friend Bill Roth told me about the precise method of scoring Schuetzen targets in Germany.  This is my 1st ever look at the machine and precision measurements that can be obtained.  Please post a short explanation of how the target is positioned on the machine.  If I understand the concept correctly, the target bull's eye is placed under the one on the machine and the arm on the left is placed at the nearest edge (or is it the center) of the bullet hole to the bull's eye with the dial indicator showing the distance?  Also, the pointed plum bob looking metal cylinder (bottom right) - what is that used for?

Is the same method, using the bull-scoring-machine, done in Switzerland too?

This is a most informative and educational post.  A very large Thank You for the explanations and the pictures

« Last Edit: Jun 6th, 2011 at 12:05am by »  
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Re: Scoring in Bavaria: Quality not Quantity of Bull's
Reply #14 - Jun 5th, 2011 at 11:26pm
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Biggi,
The accuracy of the measurements is astounding. If my calculations to English are wrong, someone please correct me.

A millimeter is about 0.04" (0.03937"). A "Teiler" is .01 millimeter or 0.0004". I see measurements to 0.1 "Teiler"(0.001 millimeter) or 0.00004". The instrument used to measure is beautiful and amazingly accurate. My best indicator will measure 0.0001" (0.0025 mm).

This method of measurement may have some relationship to the string measurement in the U. S. I have read about, but the string is nowhere near as accurate. 
Chuck
« Last Edit: Jun 5th, 2011 at 11:33pm by Chuckster »  
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