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25-20 Single Shot (Read 11243 times)

aktrap Participating Member Offline Posts: 11 Location: alaska Joined: May 19^th, 2007	25-20 Single Shot Feb 17^th, 2011 at 12:46pm	Print Post
	Good morning. I am having trouble resizing Bertram 25-20 Single Shot brass to fit the chamber of a very nice 1904 Winchester Low Wall. Dies are CH4D dies from BACO and brass is new unfired. Is the Bertram brass the problem and maybe I should just buy new Jamison brass?


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38_Cal Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2247 Location: Montezuma, Iowa Joined: Apr 27^th, 2005	Re: 25-20 Single Shot Reply #1 - Feb 17^th, 2011 at 1:11pm	Print Post
	I would suggest that you make a chamber cast of your rifle and also do one of your dies, then measure the brass and both casts to see where the problem is. It's more than likely the brass, but it's always possible that your sizing die may be at fault. If the die's dimensions check out, make sure that you use a good sizing lube, like Imperial Sizing Wax. For the first sizing, remove the decapping/expanding rod from your sizing die. David

	David Kaiser Montezuma, IA
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aktrap Participating Member Offline Posts: 11 Location: alaska Joined: May 19^th, 2007	Re: 25-20 Single Shot Reply #2 - Feb 17^th, 2011 at 1:44pm	Print Post
	Thanks for the information. I have run the brass fully into the sizing die without the decapping rod using Imperial Sizing lube. The brass seems to be larger only at the base. The sized case chambers all but the last 3/16" and there are marks at the base when the brass is removed. My first thought has been the Bertram brass may just be over sized at the base. Thanks, Wally


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frnkeore Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7265 Location: Central Point, OR 97502 Joined: Jun 16^th, 2010	Re: 25-20 Single Shot Reply #3 - Feb 18^th, 2011 at 6:16pm	Print Post
	What is the diameter of the base of the Bertram brass? My G&H 22-3000 is .315 and Jamison is the same size. If yours is much larger than that, you may have to buy the smaller (as in right size) Jamison brass to chamber. Frank

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uscra112 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 4079 Location: Switzerland of Ohio Joined: May 7^th, 2007	Re: 25-20 Single Shot Reply #4 - Feb 19^th, 2011 at 1:36am	Print Post
	Interesting that you ran into this in a .25-20. I have fought the same exact problem with two of my Lovells, but in both rifles it was because the oldtime gunsmiths had reamed the chambers small. Assuming the problem is oversize brass, you could swage your Bertram brass to reduce the base, but now that the Jamison can be had, I'd say just buy new and don't look back. But if you DO have a small chamber, P/M me and I'll talk you through the process of "small-basing" .25-20 / Lovell brass. Phil

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John Boy Ex Member	Re: 25-20 Single Shot Reply #5 - Feb 19^th, 2011 at 10:02am	Print Post
	Quote: The brass seems to be larger only at the base. The sized case chambers all but the last 3/16" and there are marks at the base when the brass is removed. AK, couple of suggestions: 1. Seat the resizing die to the shell holder with the ram fully in the down position. Then turn the die down an additional 1 - 2 turns. This will put more crimp on the web of the resized case where the base starts 2. Leave the decapping pin in while resizing. The pin has the expander on it. With no expander, any case will not have the mouth of the case expanded to the proper bullet diameter when you reload them. Even when you bell the case and seat the bullet, the neck tension will be so tight that accuracy will be impaired with a tension greater than 0.001 to 0.002 I had the same 'oversized' brass issue reforming 30-30 cases to 8.15x46R. Every case was 0.315 in one spot on the web. I needed 0.313. Turned the resizing die down, ran the cases through again and they all chambered correctly. A few were tight chambering but cammed in. When they were fireformed - no issues chambering and extracting


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dennismc Junior Member Offline Posts: 60 Location: Eureka, CA Joined: Jan 17^th, 2008	Re: 25-20 Single Shot Reply #6 - Feb 19^th, 2011 at 1:47pm	Print Post
	uscra112, You have a PM. Dennis


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38_Cal Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 2247 Location: Montezuma, Iowa Joined: Apr 27^th, 2005	Re: 25-20 Single Shot Reply #7 - Feb 19^th, 2011 at 2:57pm	Print Post
	John, I should have gone into more detail. When forming/sizing new brass where a lot of metal has to be moved, I prefer to leave the decapping/expanding rod out. After it's formed, I'll then go back and re process it with the rod back in. Just less force on the brass/dies/press for the first forming steps, especially if a lot of sizing has to be done. David

	David Kaiser Montezuma, IA
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Hammer47 Junior Member Offline Posts: 54 Joined: Jul 16^th, 2008	Re: 25-20 Single Shot Reply #8 - Feb 26^th, 2011 at 5:45am	Print Post
	Quote: Quote: The brass seems to be larger only at the base. The sized case chambers all but the last 3/16" and there are marks at the base when the brass is removed. AK, couple of suggestions: 1. Seat the resizing die to the shell holder with the ram fully in the down position. Then turn the die down an additional 1 - 2 turns. This will put more crimp on the web of the resized case where the base starts 2. Leave the decapping pin in while resizing. The pin has the expander on it. With no expander, any case will not have the mouth of the case expanded to the proper bullet diameter when you reload them. Even when you bell the case and seat the bullet, the neck tension will be so tight that accuracy will be impaired with a tension greater than 0.001 to 0.002 I had the same 'oversized' brass issue reforming 30-30 cases to 8.15x46R. Every case was 0.315 in one spot on the web. I needed 0.313. Turned the resizing die down, ran the cases through again and they all chambered correctly. A few were tight chambering but cammed in. When they were fireformed - no issues chambering and extracting Instead of putting so much pressure on your ram why not just chuck the shellholder in the lathe or on the mill and take a .010 or so off the top?


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screwloosetc Ex Member	Re: 25-20 Single Shot Reply #9 - Feb 26^th, 2011 at 6:45am	Print Post
	AQK Try a thin film of STP on your brass when sizing. Its the best sizing lube I have ever used. Been using it since Silent Sam. Tom


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uscra112 Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 4079 Location: Switzerland of Ohio Joined: May 7^th, 2007	Re: 25-20 Single Shot Reply #10 - Feb 26^th, 2011 at 9:36pm	Print Post
	Gee, I dunno about using STP. It's awfully hard to get rid of it, and get rid of it you must, or you will have exaggerated bolt-thrust problems. I suppose dousing the cases in acetone or MEK would do it, that's either a fire hazard or a liver hazard, or both. Will Brakleen do it? Now that there's no 1,1,1 trichloroethane in it? I dunno.

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screwloosetc Ex Member	Re: 25-20 Single Shot Reply #11 - Feb 26^th, 2011 at 11:23pm	Print Post
	Dawn detergent and hot water will get rid of it. I use a very thin film. Most of my loads re mild. It sure makes sizing easy. Tom


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40_Rod Frequent Elocutionist Offline Extremism in the persuit of accuracy is not a vice Posts: 4285 Location: Knoxville, TN Joined: Apr 20^th, 2004	Re: 25-20 Single Shot Reply #12 - Feb 27^th, 2011 at 8:05am	Print Post
	The easy answer is stay away from Berturm junk! Jamison is now making excellent brass for 25-20 SS. If you are using a caliber that you can't find brass other than Bertrum for, make a chamber cast and send it to Rocky Mountain Cartridge. He will make a case that is right you can then throw out that Bertrum junk. 40 Rod


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creedmoormatch Ex Member	Re: 25-20 Single Shot Reply #13 - Mar 3^rd, 2011 at 3:21pm	Print Post
	And a "good morning" to you as well, Aktrap ! I would like to "second" what Mr. 40-Rod has said. Why put yourself through all the hassle of trials and tribulations associated with Bertram's misdeeds, when the answer is as close as your telephone? (Just phone up Jamison) All the hoops and gyrations make for interesting reading, but why go through all that? I have been using Jamison 25-20 S.S. since it recently came to the market place and it is quality at a fair price, guaranteed ! Creedmoormatch


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John Boy Ex Member	Re: 25-20 Single Shot Reply #14 - Mar 3^rd, 2011 at 4:01pm	Print Post
	Quote: The brass seems to be larger only at the base. The sized case chambers all but the last 3/16" and there are marks at the base when the brass is removed Wally, sorry I missed the part about 'larger only at the base' after using the CH4D die. OK, give this a try because I had a slight larger diameter on some of the reformed 30-30 cases for the 8.15x46R using the CH4D die... Again, seat the resizing die 1-2 extra turns and then put a shim on the shell holder to take up the space between the top of the shell holder and the bottom of the case rim . Gonna bet, when you run the cases through the die again, at the web where the case base starts, your going to feel resistance. The shim under the shell holder is now allowing the die to squeeze the web area (base) smaller ... allowing the cases to chamber properly in a tight chamber Worth a try instead of buying new brass! PS: A skilled gun crank showed me this trick.


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