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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Stepping back in time - UMC .22 L.R. blackpowder (Read 37919 times)
w44wcf
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Stepping back in time - UMC .22 L.R. blackpowder
Feb 13th, 2011 at 6:48pm
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Recently I located an old 2 piece box of 22 LR cartridges. Most all the writing on the box was gone but I could barely make out "UMC" on the bottom edge. I pulled one of the bullets and they are b.p. cartridges.  

As the pic shows, the lube was dried out and there is some tarnishng of the copper case. Thankfully, they will clean up ok. I used a toothbrush to clean off the dry lube and a bore brush to clean off the cartridge case. I then relubed with SPG. Hopefully the priming compound still has some life left. 
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Well.......tried to fire a couple of the original UMC .22 b.p. cartridges yesterday, but click, click....priming compound is "deader than a doornail". I wasn't totally surprised, just a bit disappointed. 

So......I spent a couple of hours cleaning and pulling bullets and powder from the UMC cartridges. Thankfully the case was not crimped into the bullet heel so the heel was not distorted in the process. 
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Bullet diameter .225" 
factory compression: .035" 

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After loading the 4.5 grs. of the original powder into Armscor cases, I seated the U.M.C. bullets with a Lyman H&I .225 die. 

10 loaded and ready to go 
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Had a chance to shoot 10 of the assembled b.p. cartridges yesterday at my clubs 50 ft. indoor range since the weather wasn't too good outdoors and I was anxious to test them. 

I was very pleased with the results Smiley
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As Jackie Gleason would say "How sweet it is!"  Smiley 
w44wcf
« Last Edit: Feb 13th, 2011 at 6:56pm by w44wcf »  

aka Jack Christian  "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13&&aka w30wcf&&aka John Kort&&NRA Life Member&&.22 W.C.F. , .30 W.C.F., .44 W.C.F. cartridge historian
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w44wcf
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Re: Stepping back in time - UMC .22 L.R. blackpowder
Reply #1 - Feb 13th, 2011 at 7:33pm
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To continue......
I was a bit surprised that the powder charge was 4.5 grs rather than the 5 grs referenced in early UMC catalogs.  Perhaps they eventually decided to go with a finer b.p. and reduced the charge by 10% to reduce the amount of compression (?).

Prior to this I have used the 225438 bullet in the Armscor cases with 5 grs of SWISS b.p.  Even though the bullet weighs 45 grs, it shot well.
I used SPG lube and fired as many as 30 rounds with no reduction in accuracy (that was as many rounds  that I had loaded at one time). 

Now I would like to have a mold that will replicate the UMC 40 gr bullet with a bit wider lube grooves.   I emailed David Mos and he can do it.  If anyone else would be interested in such a mold, please let me know.

w44wcf      
  

aka Jack Christian  "I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me." Philippians 4:13&&aka w30wcf&&aka John Kort&&NRA Life Member&&.22 W.C.F. , .30 W.C.F., .44 W.C.F. cartridge historian
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BP
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Re: Stepping back in time - UMC .22 L.R. blackpowder
Reply #2 - Feb 13th, 2011 at 11:46pm
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Quote:
Prior to this I have used the 225438 bullet in the Armscor cases with 5 grs of SWISS b.p.


w44wcf,

What granulation of Swiss b.p. have you been using?

A very interesting experiment. Thanks for posting it. 
BP
  

There are three kinds of men: The ones that learn by reading, the few who learn by observation, and the rest who have to pee on the electric fence and find out for themselves.
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doubs43
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Re: Stepping back in time - UMC .22 L.R. blackpowder
Reply #3 - Feb 14th, 2011 at 12:38am
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I have a Remington-UMC box that once held 50 .22 Long Rifle Palma cartridges. There are two left and the cases are copper. They are loaded with "LESMOK" powder which I understand is a combination of smokeless and black powder. I watched as most of them were shot in a revolver and it's questionable if the smoke was actually "less" than just plain black powder would have made... not to mention the sparks that flew from the cylinder gap and muzzle.
  
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38_Cal
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Re: Stepping back in time - UMC .22 L.R. blackpowder
Reply #4 - Feb 14th, 2011 at 1:02am
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w44wcf, see if you can locate a Lyman/Ideal 225438 mould.  It's for a 44 gr. gas check round nose with two grease grooves and a crimping groove.  Use it without a gas check as a heel-base bullet.   

David
  

David Kaiser
Montezuma, IA
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John Boy
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Re: Stepping back in time - UMC .22 L.R. blackpowder
Reply #5 - Mar 10th, 2011 at 7:20pm
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Loaded my 1st original gunpowder 22LR reload this afternoon!
* The only CH4D seating die and shell holder left in the US came today. Ran to the reloading room with it
* Pulled a Wolf bullet.
* Set up the Lee Universal Expander die with the small plug on the bottom. Put a small bell on one of the new empty primed cases.
* Put 4.5gr of the 4F screened fines in the case
* Carefully adjusted the CH4D die - lowered the ram and ... Bingo! The 1st of Many to Come when the MOS 2 cavity mould arrives cut to the original UMC 40gr bullet

Gonna say, no muss, no fuss. The CH4D, with shell holder, and the Lee Universal make the process very simple. Better yet, didn't have to do any custom die/shell holder creations. Them 22's sure are little though  Wink
How Sweet It Is!  Smiley  
  
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westerner
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Re: Stepping back in time - UMC .22 L.R. blackpowder
Reply #6 - Mar 10th, 2011 at 7:33pm
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You're way nuttier than I am JB!    Grin      


                 Joe.
  

A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
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John Boy
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Re: Stepping back in time - UMC .22 L.R. blackpowder
Reply #7 - Mar 12th, 2011 at 4:23pm
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Joe, am going to have some fun in the morning ... one of the fellas' at our gallery matches shoots a 22LR.  Put 6 rounds in my range bag loaded with the 4.5gr of 4Fg fines and the Wolf heads.

"Hey Dave, a friend gave me some European Extra Special Match rounds.  Would you mind shooting some to see how they group?"

Believe the expression on his face when the cloud of smoke evolves is going to be -
Grin PRICELESS! Grin  
  
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Re: Stepping back in time - UMC .22 L.R. blackpowder
Reply #8 - Mar 12th, 2011 at 9:49pm
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You need to have your camera ready!   Grin


                Joe.
  

A blind squirrel runs into a tree every once in a while.
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Fred Boulton
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Re: Stepping back in time - UMC .22 L.R. blackpowder
Reply #9 - Mar 13th, 2011 at 11:02am
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I used to shoot pistol on an indoor range. One day, in the 1970s, the prone rifle shooters decided to have a pistol shoot and use up some of that old RMC ammo with the copper cases. They used the club Webly Mk4 .22 revolver. We came in the following day and the Webley was ruined--damp rust dripping from the cylinder and the barrel pitted.
This stuff is very corrosive.
Fred
  
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nobearsyet
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Re: Stepping back in time - UMC .22 L.R. blackpowder
Reply #10 - Mar 14th, 2011 at 11:39pm
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I'd like to know where you guys get those empty 22LR cases, and the molds to make the bullets too.  Been wanting to try reloading for a rimfire for a while, but haven't been able to find the components, maybe that's why I never won any matches shooting small bore...
  
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Winnetou
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Re: Stepping back in time - UMC .22 L.R. blackpowder
Reply #11 - Mar 15th, 2011 at 7:04am
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The primed .22 cases have been available from the Hunting Shack—

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—but they are out of stock at the moment.

John Kort, the OP, has drawn an excellent diagram for a proper mould, and they are being made by David Mos. This is the information:

Mold # - KT22LR
1 cavity - $90
2 cavity - $125
Terms:  50% down / 50% when molds are ready to ship / Personal checks or Money order  
 
Tolerance: .000” + .001”
Sprue plate: .07” sprue hole diameter(s)
Mold material: cast iron
Delivery 4-6 weeks

This pricing is in force until 31 March. You can send a down payment to Mr Mos:

David Mos
1282 Polk 71
Mena, AR 71953
  
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John Boy
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Re: Stepping back in time - UMC .22 L.R. blackpowder
Reply #12 - Mar 15th, 2011 at 6:43pm
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A blurb I put on the SASS Wire as an inducement and my current status:
I'm not alone in the 'Resurrection Venture'!
My good friend, John Kort (w44wcf) is a devoted old loaded ammunition historian.  He is the Instigator! 
The Venture Begins:
* Found a ammo supplier website that was selling in a box, 5000 (yes 5,000) new empty primed 22LR brass.  Ordered a box and so did some other fellas.  The last of the only 5 boxes in the USofA are now in the hands of the other 4 fellas
* John Kort did a schematic drawing of the original 40gr UMC bullet.  Got in contact with David Mos who agreed to cut single or double cavity molds if we could get a minimum order together.  Done deal ... I will have a 2x cavity mold in approximately 3 - 5 weeks. These Mos molds will be the among the very few 22LR molds ever made and the only ones based on an original bullet of the era.  In the meantime, pulling Wolf heads

* Next search was to find a seating die or a blank that could be reamed to 22LR.  Called Dave Davidson, owner of CH4D.  He said he made a small run of 22LR seating dies about 5 years ago.  Went into the shop and told me ... I have 1 left!  Bingo!  It even came with a shell holder.  So, I lucked out and don't have to make a custom die and shell holder ... to date, the last remaining commercial 22LR seating die and shell holder in the USofA
... continued: out of characters
  
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John Boy
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Re: Stepping back in time - UMC .22 L.R. blackpowder
Reply #13 - Mar 15th, 2011 at 6:47pm
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..... Continuation:

* Dragged my Lee Universal Expander box off the shelf. Flipped the small plug then the large plug into the die. Works perfectly to expand the case mouths so no lead is stripped from the seated bullets

* Powder ... have several cans of old DuPont FFFFg (when they made excellent powder) in inventory. Pulled out a 40 mesh sieve screen and commenced to collect a pound of 'fines' from 2 FFFFg cans

Then made a few rounds up with the Wolf heads. That's where I'm at now. When the Mos mold arrives, will cast the UMC bullets (22 bullets are pure lead), initially reload a box or 2 and then off to the range with the chronograph and targets.

Initial indications from some of the fellas also doing this Resurrection using commercially made bullets, groups at 50yds are running between 3/8 and an inch. Bore fouling is light using the fines from FFFFg. None of us have shot the BP reloads over a chronograph yet. Will be interesting to see what the SDs' and velocities are using 4.5gr of powder

OK, what in Sam Hill's name am I going to do with 5000 cases? Reload and shoot them, of course! I shoot small bore lever and single shot silhouette matches, 12 gallery matches a year - 50yds offhand and 22LR range time.


  
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jonskorepa
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Re: Stepping back in time - UMC .22 L.R. blackpowder
Reply #14 - Mar 15th, 2011 at 9:42pm
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lee told me they will modify a 17 cal cf factory crimp die to crimp 22lr cases.i spoke with veril at lbt he will make 22rf heeled spitizer moulds what ever gr. weight you want. try subsonic loads less wind drift plus spitzer better b.c.  jon
  
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