Hello friends, I have a question..I am about to become the lucky owner of a No. 3 Ballard, that has quite a few special features..28" full oct,..looks to be about N0.3 size. Nimcheski engraving both sides & top frame flats. Georgeous flame burl walnut, rifle butt, vernier tang & globe frnt., dbl. set triggers, georgous flame burl walnut.  Someone in very distant past has re-bored/chambered in .25-25 Stevens.  Mint bore, & nice and tight.  My question is the use of smokeless in this cast action?  I spoke with the folks at Ballard LLC, and they recommended starting with black & use chronograph & try to duplicate velocity with low pressure smokeless.  I sure wouldn,t want to do any harm to a valuable antique...and I am not just refering to the rifle!
Concerning black..I have heard good reports of the Swiss powders..What grain size would you black-powder experts recommend in this tiny bore?  I  use mostlyIMR & H4227 , and AA5744 powder in single-shots, what are your opinions on the use of TrailBoss?  Thank you so much!

Be carefull of trailboss in a cast action. People have reported pressure spikes when stuffing cartridges full to try and get up to a decent speed. I don't know of anyone who has reported good target results with this powder. 

40 Rod

I've shot many rounds of smokless powder through my cast Ballard, 32/40 -- 200 gr bullet -- 13.0 gr  AA#9   this load is about 20,000 psi which is about what a full load of black would be, so I consider it safe.  ledball

I'll back what 40 Rod said.   Trail Boss has a peculiar property - it's fast burning, but according to my QuickLoad software it has a remarkably low energy content.   Adding powder to get more fps increases the peak pressure, but it dies off so fast that it doesn't translate into velocity.   

For an 86 grain plain base bullet, try 4-5 grains Unique.   Others to try at about the same charge weight would be Accurate #5 or #7, or any of the slower shotgun powders like Herco or Longshot.   Hodgdon Lil'Gun is a possibility to be explored.

QuickLoad is a great tool for mucking about with these old cartridges for which there is precious little load data!   Even at the price, $165, I wish I'd had it sooner.

FWIW the Lovell I'm now shooting is on a cast action Ballard, built 50-60 years ago by Sedgley. Hervey Lovell also built at least one. Those old boys weren't afraid of it, and they were loading at much higher pressures than we would consider today.  The weak link is the split breechblock and the firing pin.   The fact that it's a cast receiver is less of a worry.  I'm keeping to a 20,000 psi limit regardless, which with modern powders can still yield 2500 fps.  Shooting cast, you need not even approach 20K psi.  Just be real careful to avoid double-charging!  

You'd have to find the pressure limits for your Ballard action yourself, but I've done some work on the .25-25 in my Low Wall.

Ideal 25720, 8-10 gr XMP-5744, MV 1220-1480 fps.  I've gone to 12 gr and 1800 fps with nothing to show for it but inaccuracy.

Tried 4198 from 12 to 15.5 gr and no accuracy to show for it although it got to almost 2200 ft/sec with the last loading.  12.5 gr with the 87 gr Remington jacketed bullet gave a 1-1/8" group at 100 yards.  Using the gas checked Ideal 257464 with the same powder charge got about 2" at 50 yd.

I went from 12 to 18 gr of Reloder 7 with the Remington JFP and the same range of charges of VihtaVouri N-133.  Generally the best accuracy was in the middle of the charges (14-15 gr) going 1-1/2" at 50 yards and 2-1/2" at a hundred for the best average groups.  17 gr of VVN-133 shows some promise and the bullets just shade 2000 fps.

I don't know how much help this will be to you.  What I've been trying to do is to take the .25-25 out of the .25-20 range of velocities and get maybe a Hi-Speed loading for the 87 gr bullet around what the 60-gr did in the .25-20 WCF, around 2200 ft/sec.  So far though, the cartridge seems to be happiest in the 1400-1700 ft/sec range, and lower than that with cast bullets, although gas check designs seem to take a little more velocity.

In your rifle, I'd recommend sticking with the .25-20 level loadings.  The 8-10 gr XMP-5744 loads showed no signs of pressure problems.

On an unrelated note, when is Jamison going to make some .25 cylindrical Basic brass for the legions of .25-21 and .25-25 enthusiasts?  I think a large part of my accuracy problems come from the variances in the Bertram brass I use.

Quarterbore,

Some of them are fairly stiff, all right, but I've seen no extraction problems or extreme pressure signs in the Low Wall.  Would you say the 8-10 gr of XMP-5744 was excessive?  

I only recommended the regular .25-20 loadings, if I recall.

Hello, and thanks everyone for the helpful replys.  I will send more info on rufle when I get it.  I was wondering...What if I loaded say Swiss FFFG & chronographed most accurate load..would this be any help in determining equalivent smokeless load?  Would want to keep pressure same or below if possible..is there a correlation, without having to invest in a strain gage?  Thanks guys!

"I was wondering...What if I loaded say Swiss FFFG & chronographed most accurate load..would this be any help in determining equalivent smokeless load?" Ah, would that that were so. It may get you into the ballpark, but there are too many other variables that start coming into play when changing just propellants. Even at an equivalent pressure, the burn characteristics and pressure rise profile of the various possible smokeless loads you might try will change how the bullet upsets, how the lubricant works, how the barrel vibrates, how the gun recoils, etc., etc., and thus change accuracy. To add more worms to your can, start fooling with bullet metal mix, hardness, lubricants, sizing, tempering, seating depth, crimping, annealing, throating, neck tension, etc., etc., and soon the variables start to outrun your patience or pocketbook. For the true rifle crank, all this stuff is grist for endless fascination and experimentation, plus an excuse to buy more nifty toys. Have fun!