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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Kasenit whole Low Wall? (Read 14459 times)
BP
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Re: Kasenit whole Low Wall?
Reply #15 - Oct 25th, 2010 at 2:15pm
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JCHannum,

You bring up a subject that I have always wondered about, and to a question which I have never gotten an answer that really seemed satisfactory...

When someone blocks a receiver for pack hardening, it seems to me that the blocking materials must also undergo the same temp transitions of thermal expansion in the oven, and contraction during quench, along with changes in crystalline grain size experienced by the receiver and other parts. 

I understand that a block in the breech mortise will help prevent the side walls of the action from moving inward causing pinching of the breechblock during re-assembly, but...    if the temps are high enough to cause sagging and warping of the receiver, how is it possible for the blocking components to somehow escape the same distortions? 
  

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Re: Kasenit whole Low Wall?
Reply #16 - Oct 25th, 2010 at 3:48pm
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When you pack harden, the carbon absorbsotion occurs when the steel reaches a certain temp that it will absorb carbon. The absorbed carbon is in the form of carbon monoxide and carbon dioxide, this is the by-product of carbonaceous materials, which, when heated,  off gas these compounds. 

For any practical sense, increasing the carbon content will not increase hardness..   Machining annealed 1095 (spring steel)  is not much different than machining 1020. 
But, what the additional carbon has done is increased the steel’s ability to be hardened. 

Taking both 1095 and 1020 heating to 1400 deg F, then quenching , there will be no difference in machining the 1020 than in it’s annealed state. But the 1095 will be “file hard’ and a true bugger to machine without carbide. 
Heat back up to 1500 deg, and allow cooling slowly, once cool, they both again, are easily machined. 

Additional carbon in the steel does not greatly reduce wear resistance when the steel is in the annealed state.
 
As to blocking:  I used to use blocking quite often when I first started doing CCH. Nice blocks beautifully machined out of stainless steel.  What I have found over the years, is that blocking is not 100% necessary.  If the steel is going to move, it will move no matter what, if there is a block in there it will “spring” once the block is removed. 

BUT… The great aspect of case hardening is that you have an hard outer surface and a soft inner core… so the parts are easily tweaked. 

Mike Hunter
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JCHannum
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Re: Kasenit whole Low Wall?
Reply #17 - Oct 25th, 2010 at 5:04pm
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I will yield to Mike, who is obviously more experienced than I am.  I will only say that heating steel to the temperatures required for case hardening to occur is not something to be approached casually. 

Thick and thin sections such as found in a rifle action will respond to heat differently, and may or may not return to the original shape. A solid block is much less subject to this movement. 

Heating in a furnace will tend to apply the heat more uniformly than using a torch, and the pack material itself very likely serves to moderate the heating and make it more uniform.
  

Jim H.
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John Taylor
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Re: Kasenit whole Low Wall?
Reply #18 - Oct 26th, 2010 at 9:20am
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Thanks for the info Mike.
This might be an area to leave to the professionals when you got lots of money tied up in a frame. If you make your own as a hobby and this is a learning process then by all means do it your self.
  

John Taylor   Machinist/gunsmith
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Re: Kasenit whole Low Wall?
Reply #19 - Oct 26th, 2010 at 10:03am
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When hardening that Hoch action I wasnt worried about ruining it. It's a big ugly action with thick walls.  Hardening a lowall action wouldnt worry me either.
Why worry? Why not read a book, gather the proper tools and equipment and do it. Why think of it as difficult, or full of pitfalls?  One can do test pieces to perfect a procedure.
Most will send the piece to a shop and thats fine. I like spending my money on old rifles and parts. I like doing my own work. I like saving a buck. 

            Joe.  Smiley
  

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Re: Kasenit whole Low Wall?
Reply #20 - Oct 26th, 2010 at 9:18pm
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Joe,

Agree with your thoughts. 

Most of what appears to be too difficult comes from not having tried to do it. Duplicating a process that was regularly performed a century ago takes some thoughtful experimenting with proper tools and equipment, but it's not modern day rocket science. And it couldn't have been too onerous otherwise the major arms producers would have shied away from it to prevent a high materials scrap rate and a waste of labor. 

One reason I asked about blocking is because after having examined the interior of a lot of old frames that were originally pack-hardened (along with some junker frames that were only good for skeletonizing or sectioning), and some that were blocked during recent re-color hardening, I've come to doubt that blocking was regularly done way back when.

The only way to sort the facts from the often repeated BS (and no offense intended to anyone who's posted on this thread) is to experiment. And as that old saying goes...  nothing ventured, nothing gained... or learned.  Smiley
  

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Re: Kasenit whole Low Wall?
Reply #21 - Oct 26th, 2010 at 9:39pm
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I asked Ron Long about blocking while heating actions. He told me he tried a ceramic material. I dont remember the details of the conversation. He said that almost always a hiwall action will pinch together at the bottom where the tang slides in. He told me he made a little screw jack to spread it back out.  

Dont see why fire brick wouldnt make good blocking.  Seems to me if a receiver slumps / the walls slump in, it was heated at too high a temp. If the charcoal is packed too tight against the side of the action, could that push the sides in when it gets up to max temp?  

                  Joe.  Smiley 
« Last Edit: Oct 26th, 2010 at 9:46pm by westerner »  

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Re: Kasenit whole Low Wall?
Reply #22 - Oct 27th, 2010 at 3:06am
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Joe,

First, Mike Hunter gave a really good description of the pack hardening processes, and I agree with his thoughts on the hardened and annealed state comparisons.

I don't think there's much to be gained by packing tight enough to put mechanical pressure on a receivers sidewalls. Think more along the lines of a cartridge that has been drop-tubed full of Fg , but not yet run into the compression die. Good kernel/grain contact without crushing.

You want a fairly firm pack for two reasons:
1st, you don't want the parts to move around in the can and end up against each other, or the container walls. Leave room between the can walls and between the individual parts.
2nd is you don't want the top surface to settle down and drop below any portion of your parts as slag could develop on the exposed surfaces of those nicely polished pieces.

At first I sealed the lids to the containers with fire clay, but found it was a waste of time and money as the media degases long enough to move it from the oven to the quench. My oven is inside and my tank is outside. The lids are slip-snug and on there to keep the red hot char in the can during the move. The red heat of the can and lid makes them stick together and a couple taps knocks the lid off. I wear leathers and gloves, helmet and face-shield when quenching.

Something else I found is that the different medias (bone-char, wood-char, and mixs of the two) degas differently at different temps, so you'll want to experiment with temps and soak times to get the results you're after with your media.

I normally anneal just after quenching as the ovens already hot from hardening. I place the parts in a packet made from stainless foil with some paper towel in it to burn up the oxygen from any air in the packet. I open the door, set the packet inside and turn off the oven controller. Then I pull it out the following day.

Joe, you got a good machine case on your Hoch with the kasenit. 
Keep on experimenting!  Smiley
  

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Re: Kasenit whole Low Wall?
Reply #23 - Oct 27th, 2010 at 9:23am
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Back when I first started CCH, I did a LOT of experimenting.  I took 1018 steel plates and surface ground them, so that they were perfectly flat and a known size.  CCH them then measured for flatness, size and of course colors. 
 
I experimented for about a year, sometimes as many as three drops  a day: different temps, different bone to wood ratios, different quench temps, different soak times etc. 

I also took a couple of frames and CCH them to destruction,  measuring after each quench, and just seeing how many they would take before they were no good.  One I annealed before each CCH cycle, the other I did not. 

I bought every pre 1920 book on case hardening that I could find, I now actually have quite a substantial library . 

So quite a few experiments under my belt before I started offering this service to the general public. 

As to blocking, stainless steel works quite well, fairly easily to machine, and holds up exceedingly well. 

But as I stated earlier,  I generally don’t use blocking a whole lot any more, Yes I’ll still use blocking in the bolt rails of lever guns, and sometimes the ears of lower tangs, but for the most part, If you don’t get too crazy with soak temps, parts are properly annealed first, arrange the parts so that the thicker parts hit the quench first, there is really not a whole lot of metal movement.  And if the parts are going to move, they will move with or without blocking i.e.. once you take the blocking out the metal will spring. 

V/R

Mike

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Re: Kasenit whole Low Wall?
Reply #24 - Oct 27th, 2010 at 11:34am
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I have always heard that warpage is caused by internal stresses built up during quenching. Sort of agrees with Mike that if the stresses are there it is going to spring whether you block or not. Uniform heating and quenching would seem to be one of the keys.

Never the less, I have always blocked alloy (4340) receivers with close fitting, clamped mild steel blocks before giving it to the heat treater. He says it is probably not required. No warpage problems so far, but a very limited sample.
Chuck
  
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Re: Kasenit whole Low Wall?
Reply #25 - Oct 30th, 2010 at 11:52am
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I have never done an action hardening with any material, but I have used Kasenit to successfully pack harden a number of small to medium sized items with very good results. Biggest items I recall doing were two newly machined pins for a #1 Rolling Block. 

They came out frosty grey with even a touch of color on the ends, much to my amazement. I completely covered the pins in a thick layer of Kasenit and stuck them in my electric furnace for about an hour, then quenched in a brine solution. I also have several small containers I use for very small parts that I heat with a torch when pack hardening very small items.
  
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