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Redwing
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The Ultimate Single Shot
May 19th, 2009 at 6:51pm
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Hi All !!!

There are some good threads running right now about breach-seating, free-bore and throated vs non-throated rifled bore’s. 

For a number of years I have wondered about the breach seating of a 45-70 for the purpose of starting the bullet in the best position of its chartered path.. However, all those that I have talked to have said no, you can’t, “the 45-70 is too large to breach-seat” !!!  At 1400 fps, time spent in the barrel must bridge on a nano-second.. (lol) Do we really think the bullet will center itself in that time ???

This just drives me nuts when I think of all the Naval and large Coastal Gun’s that load the projectile, followed by loads of guncotton that fire at targets well over thirty-five miles away.. It would be interesting to hear from someone with knowledge of these gun’s to describe their dynamic’s and load configuration of these ultimate single shot weapons.. 

I would also like to ask for any up-dated opinion’s on the use of the breach-seating method for those larger caliber systems (that we use here today)..

Thanks !!!

Ed…


« Last Edit: May 19th, 2009 at 7:09pm by Redwing »  
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westerner
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Re: The Ultimate Single Shot
Reply #1 - May 19th, 2009 at 7:11pm
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I've breachseated many bullets in my 40/65 and it works just like a .32.

I also have a tapered Ron Long .45 mold made for fixed ammo or breachseating.   

It works just like it would in a smaller caliber. 

Theres always those who say it wont work.   

Is it practical? Not to me.

                                 Joe.  Smiley
  

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Redwing
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Re: The Ultimate Single Shot
Reply #2 - May 19th, 2009 at 7:18pm
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Hi Joe !!!

Is it not practical because a .45 caliber is not considered a “target” round and should we not try to obtain the best from what we have ???

No beef here, just looking for some imput..

Ed…

  
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Re: The Ultimate Single Shot
Reply #3 - May 19th, 2009 at 7:37pm
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Ed, 
it's not practical for me because there are no over forty cal bench match's in my area. If there were, and I wanted to win, I would certainly BS .45 bullets to do it.
If all one has is the venerable 45/70 by all means BS and do your best. Trouble is the recoil will get to you no matter how tough you think you are.  Wink

Oh, I forgot the fun factor. It is very satisfying to win a match with something out of the norm. Especially when the doubters have you counted out.  Grin

                                              Joe.


« Last Edit: May 19th, 2009 at 7:43pm by westerner »  

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Redwing
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Re: The Ultimate Single Shot
Reply #4 - May 20th, 2009 at 2:06am
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Dear Joe and Ken !!!

I do appreciate your input but my quarry was directed toward those who have actually participated in bench seating the larger size (.45 & up) loads for the purpose of accuracy. This to dispel the myth of “bullet being too large”..

Inside the borders of the USA, there are many events held every year that do challenge the shooter in the 45-70 category..  As this is a WWW site, I would look forward to hearing from our brothers and sisters from all corners of the Globe who have actually tested this method and can report their results.. This would include paper-patch, load from the breach, load from the muzzle even the venerable “slug-gun” if rules could apply..

Thanks again !!!

Ed..


  
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westerner
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Re: The Ultimate Single Shot
Reply #5 - May 20th, 2009 at 2:41am
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Redwing wrote on May 20th, 2009 at 2:06am:
Dear Joe and Ken !!!

I do appreciate your input but my quarry was directed toward those who have actually participated in bench seating the larger size (.45 & up) loads for the purpose of accuracy. This to dispel the myth of “bullet being too large”..


Thanks again !!!

Ed..




        HUH!   Huh

Read my first post Ed.     Grin



                         Joe. Wink
  

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Re: The Ultimate Single Shot
Reply #6 - May 20th, 2009 at 7:34am
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A few years back an full blown bench gun in .45-70 was trtied. It did not win everything and the recoil after a few hundred shots must have been "Exedrin headache number 99" It's not that a .45-70 won't shoot as good as anything else. It is why bother when you just use more powder and lead for something that does not shoot any better. I would also think that shooting a 500 grain at over 1400FPS would be quite unpleasant for all concerned.

P.S. This has been mentioned before but: Please don't refer to our Single Shot Target Rifles as "weapons"'.
  
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Re: The Ultimate Single Shot
Reply #7 - May 20th, 2009 at 10:17am
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Years ago I had a Shiloh 45-70.  The only matches for single shots in those days were scheutzen matches at a local club.  A friend gave me a copy of Ned Roberts' book and I had a mold made to cast 385 gr PP bulets.  Made a breech seater.  Used one case, filled to the top with FFg aand covered with a card wad.
The old Farmingdale shot close to MOA and one year a friend of mine used the rifle and load to win the Boyd Hilton trophy, shooting against
32-40's and such. 
I now have a Saeco mold for a 500 gr tapered bullet which breech seats just fine, but it shoots so well in fixed ammo that there's no point in breech seating.
Steve K
  
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Redwing
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Re: The Ultimate Single Shot
Reply #8 - May 20th, 2009 at 10:30am
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Hi QB !!!

You said:

“P.S. This has been mentioned before but: Please don't refer to our Single Shot Target Rifles as "weapons"'.”

I said:

“It would be interesting to hear from someone with knowledge of these gun’s to describe their dynamic’s and load configuration of these ultimate single shot weapons”..  If you read the entire paragraph yo would see I was referring to the Naval and Coastal Guns..

Joe:  I read your post as you had experience with your 40-65 and oh yea, I do have a mold in 45-70 as well..

QB: I’m still looking for someone with practical experience !!! Old stories need not apply…  No disrespect implied… 

Steve:  Thanks for the imput !!!

Ed….

  
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Re: The Ultimate Single Shot
Reply #9 - May 20th, 2009 at 10:55am
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Well Ken, I guess we dont count on this thread. We have been told to buzz off.  And we didnt even get disrespected either!

I dont know who's more full of crap, me or you Ken. Lol  Grin Grin Grin Grin

Redwing, when I was young I shot silhouettes with an original hiwall in 45/70. The barrel had a slow twist so I breachseated my bullets so I could get more powder in the case so I could reach the rams. Oh but thats just an old story and it doesnt apply! I'm probly making it all up. Lol. 

       Good luck.

                                     Joe.   Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin


 



                 
  

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Redwing
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Re: The Ultimate Single Shot
Reply #10 - May 20th, 2009 at 12:36pm
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Joe !!!

No, its not an old story, its an experience !!!  I just wish you had said that in your first post !!!

8>))

  
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Re: The Ultimate Single Shot
Reply #11 - May 20th, 2009 at 5:59pm
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The smallest group I ever shot with a 45-70 was with a breech-seated bullet. Ohaus 45-405, not sized. Under .7", 5 shots, 100 yards.
Bench shooting a 45-70 hurts my head/makes my brain feel funny. I don't do it much. Offhand, yes, but then the breech seating accuracy difference, if there is one, matters not to me.
I have made some very silly-looking Sharps recoil reducers, too silly looking for me.
Good luck;
joe b.
  
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Re: The Ultimate Single Shot
Reply #12 - May 20th, 2009 at 6:12pm
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Geez Ken........yer just an ole farm hand mendin fence and I'm an old retired construction worker. It's no darn wonder we dont know nothin!  Grin

I dont know about you but I don't have to take this guff. I think I'll start my very own thread........... Soon as I figure out a good topic. 

Maybe an ole timers yarnin thread. Liein, yarnin and stretchin the truth will be encouraged. Yes, I think I have an idea.  Cool

Wheres my camera?   Huh

While you wait for the new thread, here's a picture of my own personal ten inch coastal defense gun. I keep the breach block in the shop so nobody can shoot it when I'm not around. 

                                      Joe.


                                                                                                         
  

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Re: The Ultimate Single Shot
Reply #13 - May 20th, 2009 at 6:53pm
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Joe, you’re a Hoot !!!

I have always enjoyed your sense of humor and I hope you continue to be a resource on this site for many more years to come… 

Now quit trying to highjack my thread and embarrass yourself anymore… 

8>))

« Last Edit: May 21st, 2009 at 10:22am by Redwing »  
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Re: The Ultimate Single Shot
Reply #14 - May 20th, 2009 at 6:54pm
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Joe: 

So if I put hydraulic recoil shocks on my 45-70 maybe I can shoot 500 grains with smokeless powder and still manage to shoot 100 rounds in a match? Or should a softer recoil pad be sufficient Joe? Not sure where to locate the shock mounts though? But would this qualify under traditional rules?
  
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Re: The Ultimate Single Shot
Reply #15 - May 20th, 2009 at 6:55pm
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Okay, but I really am gonna start my own thread!   Cheesy



                                              Joe.  Smiley
  

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Re: The Ultimate Single Shot
Reply #16 - May 21st, 2009 at 2:49pm
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Schuetzendave wrote on May 20th, 2009 at 6:54pm:
Joe: 

So if I put hydraulic recoil shocks on my 45-70 maybe I can shoot 500 grains with smokeless powder and still manage to shoot 100 rounds in a match? Or should a softer recoil pad be sufficient Joe? Not sure where to locate the shock mounts though? But would this qualify under traditional rules?



Hi Dave. wasnt sure which Joe you were asking. I think JoeB has the answers on hydraulic buffer systems for .45 bench guns.  Wink


                         Joe.


  

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Re: The Ultimate Single Shot
Reply #17 - May 21st, 2009 at 8:23pm
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A friend of mine and I went to the range with the .458WM, 45-70-500 and the 375 ouch and ouch (300gr).  Max loads.
I shot about 50 he shot about 30.
Both of us were shooting from the left shoulder towards the end, as the right was too tender.
Fortunately I don't bruse - slight yellowing of skin.  He was black from elbow to chest.

So one would do much better with muzzle breaks, but I wonder about merely a recoil delaying device.


  

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Re: The Ultimate Single Shot
Reply #18 - May 22nd, 2009 at 9:07am
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westerner wrote on May 21st, 2009 at 2:49pm:
Schuetzendave wrote on May 20th, 2009 at 6:54pm:
Joe: 

So if I put hydraulic recoil shocks on my 45-70 maybe I can shoot 500 grains with smokeless powder and still manage to shoot 100 rounds in a match? Or should a softer recoil pad be sufficient Joe? Not sure where to locate the shock mounts though? But would this qualify under traditional rules?

No hydraulics, but I made RR track pieces that clamped below the barrel, others that were under the butt and ell'd up behind the butt. Had the hooked butt plate sawed off and a recoil pad put on first, that helped some. Now I'd just get one of those rigs that hold the gun and some bags of shot. Lead sled??
I'm not kidding abot the recoil affecting my brain, had 2 brain ops in 08. Try to avoid brain ops.
For some reason offhand and cross sticks and prone etc. doesn't feel like bench.
joe b. 

Hi Dave. wasnt sure which Joe you were asking. I think JoeB has the answers on hydraulic buffer systems for .45 bench guns.  Wink


                         Joe.



  
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Re: The Ultimate Single Shot
Reply #19 - May 23rd, 2009 at 5:36pm
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When I first started shooting ASSRA at Etna Green a few years back the ONLY rifle I had was a 45-70 Browning sporter---not one of the long heavy Creedmoor/BCPR versions--  it was the 1878 one with no tang and a light short tapered barrel.

I was breech seating the original Lyman Matthews 500 gr tapered bullet with some fairly stout loads of smokeless.  alloy was critical as was a good solid breech seating tool.  I also used cork wads seated the wad's thickness off the powder--mostly to keep from spilling it as I chambered the case.

Yeah it beat me around some, but once I got behind the bench rather than alongside the gun---and did the Dale-job on the trigger.  the thin sporter stock was a PITA off the bags.  but in spite of it all I managed a few low 240-s in the Schoyen----which I've had a hard time beating since with nominally more appropriate equipment.   Maybe I ought to did it out of storeage.

One thing for sure---it was a LOT less wind sensitive Roll Eyes--in fact when I was shooting it I had no flags, probes or any other such doo-dads.

I see no reason it shouldn't work for you---given it is a bigger horse, kicks harder and is more expensive to feed.   It's just a matter of finding the right balance of the bits'n pieces.

Good luck


  

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