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texasmac
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Determining sufficient scope adjustment range
Oct 9th, 2008 at 1:06am
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Recently I started a couple of threads ( (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)) on scopes and mounts and indicated I would most likely purchase one of the new 18” Wm Malcolm-style 6-power scopes (with mounts) from Leatherwood.  It arrived today. I plan to fully evaluate it and post the results here.  But my 1st problem is determining if the Leatherwood rear mount will have sufficient elevation adjustment without using a 2-step block.  The scope will be mounted on a Browning BPCR in .40-65 caliber, using a 410 gr. bullet with a muzzle velocity of around 1250 fps.  Since my local range is limited to 200 yds, is there a way, to determine if the rear mount has sufficient adjustment range?  In other words, can the amount of elevation necessary to hit a 500 meter target (rams) be extrapolated back to physical displacement on a 100 yd or 200 yd target?  If so, does anyone know how much displacement I should need or expect?  Thanks.

Wayne
  

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Re: Determining sufficient scope adjustment range
Reply #1 - Oct 9th, 2008 at 5:46am
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You can figure it out advance, We had a formula posted on this forum but can't find it just now and am away from my notebooks for a few days.  In any event it's just like Iron sights except the sight radius is whatever the scope block distance is.

From memory only with 36 inch sight radius .01 movement is a Minute of Angle so using normal 7.2 inch scope block distance one minute of angle  on a scope needs 1/5 of .01 movement.  If your Malcom style scope has a wider spacing it would be different. Thats the Sight part of the problem.

Then you need the ballistic part of the equation, how much sight adjustment is required for different ranges with your bullet.  Thats avalable with either computer ballistic programs or in Lymans Cast Bullet Handbook. The CBH is so fast usefull I gave up on the computer programs.

There is the practical way to figure it out. Shoot the rifle at shorter distance. Say 100 yards with you sight all the way down then crank it up to the max and measue the strike on target. difference in inches is your range in MOA.  Going back to the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook tables it's possable to calculate sights with a fair degree of accucary, Used to be some 25 yard targets avalable for the 30 Cal service round that gave sights at distances.  You can do the same thing on a big piece of cardboard using a black marker and vertical line with a round aiming point inked on.

Somebody may have the exact formula at hand but you get the idea.

Boats
« Last Edit: Oct 9th, 2008 at 6:04am by boats »  
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sureshot
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Re: Determining sufficient scope adjustment range
Reply #2 - Oct 9th, 2008 at 11:07am
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Hi Wayne,
Looking through my notebook it looks like at 100yds you will need to be somewhere around 65"-70" high to be on at 500 meters. You can set up two targets that far apart and use the bottom one for an aiming point and set the scope to hit the top target. The high power shooters use a target like this they call a "thermometer" target at 50yds to get sight settings at various ranges. It is based on the 30-06 so it is much shorter of course.
Steve
  
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Re: Determining sufficient scope adjustment range
Reply #3 - Oct 9th, 2008 at 1:00pm
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Wayne it might be easier to determine maximum adjustment range at 25 yards. It would certainly require a much smaller target to record two groups than what you'd need at 100. I would use a very large piece of cardboard, about 3 feet square, and place a 1" paster about 1/3 up from the bottom. It would be nice to know what the full range of adjustment for the mounts might be but it's not what you really need to know. What you're looking for is the amount remaning after you've sighted in at 100 or 200 yds. Sight in at 25 on the paster, and if the mounts do not have a vernier type scale measure from bottom of the scope tube at mount to the mount base or barrel with dial calipers, now adjust to maximum elevation and fire a 3 shot group. You should still be on the cardboard. Measue the distance between the center of the bull and the center of the group in inches and multiply by four. This number will be the approximate number of Minutes of Angle remaining in the scope's adjustment range from a 25 yd zero. If you then measure how much the scope has moved or read the scale on the mount you can determine the ratio of movement in .01" to MOA or interpolate from the mount's markings. Paste up the bullet holes and take the target to 100 yds. Move the bullseye to the center and without adjusting the scope fire a 3 shot group. Measure from the center of this group to the center of the bull. Subtract the number of inches in that measurement from the number of MOA of adjustment that remained at 25 yds. You now have the amount of adjustment remaining from a 100 yd sight in.

When I get home I'll send you a link to a ballistics program on the net that seems to work with my 40-65 when I need to calculate sight settings. If the bullet you are using resembles a Hoch 409-405 its ballistic coefficient will be around .420 if its closer to the Lyman Snover it will be around .485. You can crank the appropriate BC in to the program and calculate the adjustment you'll need at all the ranges for silly-wet.

 

  
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texasmac
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Re: Determining sufficient scope adjustment range
Reply #4 - Oct 9th, 2008 at 7:31pm
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Thanks guys,

I believe I'm trying to make this more complicated than it really is.  For one thing it did not dawn on me that the same forumla for iron sights can be used with a scope.  Therefore, if I know the MOA value required to adjust the scope from 200 yds to 500 yds I should easily be able to determine if the rear mount has sufficient range.

Sureshot's value of 65" to 70" at 100 yds converts directly to 65 to 70 MOA.  I posted my request on another forum and received a response of around 50 MOA to move from 200m to 500m.  From my records of iron sight settings from my 45-70 Browning, the amount of correction is 55 MOA, and expect the .40-65 to be a little less.  

So using the formula (Distance between scope mounts X MOA / 3600)should result in the required rear mount correction amount.  Using the existing Browning factory holes which are spaced 3.975", along with 55 MOA, results in 0.061", which is not much and well within the adjustment range of the mount.

The Leatherwood rear mount that comes with the 18" 6-power scope is a 1" inside diameter caged-type" mount with somewhat crude but functional micromenter-type adjustments.  It has around 0.25" of verticle (elevation) adjustment with a 3/4" scope.  I may switch it out for a Unertl with similar dimensions.

Using the existing holes in the top of the receiver and drilling and tapping a new set further forward in the top flat of the octagon portion of the barrel may make more sense.  If I increase the mount spacing to around 7" or 8" I should still have over twice the adjustment range necessary while better supporting the scope.  It will also reduce the sensitivity of the rear mount adjustments (a good thing I'm thinking).
But prior to drilling and tapping new forward mount holes I plan on mounting and evaluating the scope with the existing holes and with the Leatherwood mounts.

More on the Leatherwood scope and mounts to come.

Wayne
« Last Edit: Oct 9th, 2008 at 8:37pm by texasmac »  

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Re: Determining sufficient scope adjustment range
Reply #5 - Oct 9th, 2008 at 10:02pm
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Like you say it's not difficult

Only thing I would caution is after you make the calculation prove it on paper. Like Old Blue said 25 yards is plenty if you are carefully about measuring center of impact.  Each 1/4 inch is one MOA.   

Other thing we do to get guys on paper at match distance quick is to shoot at the berm using a couple of guys spotting. Best target is a Shotgunners orange clay pigeon.  The spotters need to be able to estimate bullets strike in MOA so you can quickly change the sight

It's a progression, calculate, prove the calculation short. Check it on dirt at distance then get match sights on the match target at the required range.

I would also use the  standard 7.2 inch spacing. Shorter is for a modern scope. One reason they are short is the internals have much less range of adjustment possable so they need a shorter spacing to get the required adjustment range. Also makes the need for precise movement movement more critical too.

Boats


  
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texasmac
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Re: Determining sufficient scope adjustment range
Reply #6 - Oct 28th, 2008 at 11:13am
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After additional calculations it seems I could set the mount spacing at 9” and have sufficient range adjustment.  But to be sure, if I decide to use the Leatherwood rear mount on a Browning BPCR, I will most likely set the mount spacing at 7.2".  The total usable adjustment knob/screw range is around 0.200" (10 full screw revolutions).  The adjustment knob/screw scale is marked off in 8 increments.  Therefore the 7.2" spacing should result in a total of 100MOA or 1.25moa per increment on the knob.  I need around 55 MOA to adjust for bullet drop from 200M to 500M and plan to use scope blocks of the correct height to "zero" the scope at 200m with the adjustment knob at around 20MOA, which should allow another 80MOA of adjustment (25MOA more than I need).

The bottom line is the Leatherwood rear mount with the short scope has more than sufficient range, especially if the mount spacing is set to 7.2".
=======================

Now, with the above said and after "playing" with the Leatherwood mounts and cleaning them up for aesthetic reasons, I doubt I will use them for serious silhouette competition.  The scope seems to be quite adequate for the job but the mounts leave a lot to be desired.  For one thing the rear mount is not set up with a micrometer-type scale to allow for easily repeatable settings.  The whole setup should work fine on a hunting rifle.  Therefore, I decided to install the Leatherwood on a custom caplock muzzle loader that I plan to take a deer with this season.  I used the rifle in local competition several years ago but the front sight plays hell with my aging eyes.  I drilled and tapped the barrel for a scope block spacing of 7.2".  The whole setup worked great after trying it out during two trips to my local range.

Refer to the following link for more details on the 18" 6X Leatherwood scopes and mounts
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

Wayne
« Last Edit: Oct 28th, 2008 at 11:28am by texasmac »  

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