Page Index Toggle Pages: 1 Send TopicPrint
Normal Topic Offhand progression (Read 4546 times)
boats
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 7540
Location: Virginia
Joined: Apr 23rd, 2004
Offhand progression
Oct 22nd, 2008 at 10:05pm
Print Post  
When I started getting serious about offhand shooing some years ago a very good shooter gave me some advice.  "First get your equipment right. Shortcut is to use what the best shooters use. "Next to shoot better in matches eliminate errors.  Bad shots and mistakes cost way more  points than anything else." "At some point you are going to have to learn to cut your wobble and hold the rifle steady. "  "In the end the thing that separates shooters is the ability to see a good sight picture and execute the shot. "

The execute advice seems easy but in fact is the hardest part of all. Personally have been working on holding the rifle steady for a long time.  To the point that I am not going to get much more out of it.  I don't have the best offhand position but it's about what it's going to be. Improvements are going to be slight.  The see a good shot and execute is what I have been experimenting with lately.  In the "Russian" book, "Competitive shooting"  A.A. Yur' Yev spends a lot of time examining this part of the problem.

He gives a good explanation with supporting data that there is a small window to break a good shot. After an offhand rifle settles into position the best hold is in the next 3rd  to 5th second, then rapidly deteriorates. At times it's easy to see and break a center shot. Other times you will see centers but for some reason cannot get the gun to go off, or worse go off too late. 

Yur Yev relates an experiment were top level Russian shooters were tested with a buzzer buttons and colored lights.  At the flash of the light they had to hit the buzzer with times recorded.  Next test was to have the shooter hit the buzzer when the correct color light was illuminated.  Times increased significantly.  The real test came when there was a reward attached to hitting the buzzer on the correct light with a penalty for making a mistake,   Times really increased.   He related the hesitation and fear of error to failing to execute the shot when the correct sight picture is obvious.

He claims it's possible to train and improve the reaction time.  In fact some shooting sports require breaking a shot in very shot time periods with no 2nd chance or hesitation. Skeet or Trap shooting is a good example.  Action Pistol requires fast breaking shots with the best shooters making aimed multiple shots in fractions of a second shot to shot. The old trick shooters hit multiple targets in very short times.

I suspect it's not possible to improve this skill significantly with a breech seated heavy offhand Schuetzen, just not enough shots available to drill and re-drill the break. Even with a modern bolt Silhouette rifle you have 30 seconds to break a shot and most people use most of the time. No pressure to break quickly.  Still it ought to be possable to improve reaction times.  Thats how I am spending my training time, looking for answers on reaction times.

Boats
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tenx
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 385
Joined: Feb 23rd, 2008
Re: Offhand progression
Reply #1 - Oct 22nd, 2008 at 10:54pm
Print Post  
Quote:
After an offhand rifle settles into position the best hold is in the next 3rd  to 5th second, then rapidly deteriorates.


Boats,

  This is a well known principle both in rifle and pistol shooting. So the trick as Yur Yev points out is that you have to be able to get off the shot in those 3 to 5 seconds. With most people the results are a jerk of the trigger, or they freeze up. What we call around here "chicken finger".

  Yur Yev's practice seems like a good idea. The only fault I can find is that you... or he..... does not mention how they go about this training. As your times increase with the buzzers how to you train to keep from jerking the trigger? You have to be quick but smooth and the faster you increase your times the more the tendency is to jerk the trigger.

  As I see it doing a lot of shooting to build up your confidence that you can get the shot off in the time necessary is what's needed.

  Your mention of heavy offhand rifles brings up a question I have. Why is it that the German Schuetzen rifles are light in the barrel and heavy in the stock and our rifles are the opposite?

  Plus I don't breach seat my offhand rifles. I don't figure my scores are such that I can use fixed ammo and not feel I'm handicapping myself any.

PETE
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
xxgrampa
Ex Member


Re: Offhand progression
Reply #2 - Oct 23rd, 2008 at 12:53am
Print Post  
when i was 21, i could 'hold' on a 1/4 bull at 50 feet. now that i'm old, i can't even hold on the target paper.. Grin Grin.. the longer i hold, the tireder i gets..

..ttfn..grampa..
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
boats
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 7540
Location: Virginia
Joined: Apr 23rd, 2004
Re: Offhand progression
Reply #3 - Oct 23rd, 2008 at 6:10am
Print Post  
Pate agree on the Jerking triggers. It's the other side of "chicken finger"  both bad for scores.  Yur Yev spends a whole lot of time on the topic and it's sometimes difficult  to extract exactly the parts important.  I don't think he is advocating the light trick as training, more to illustrate his point.  He is strong on dry firing to control trigger jerks and no doubt it's a key exercise.

I am leaning along the lines of cross over shooting sports that don't allow any hesitation, shotgun or pistol.  With dry fire and gallery Schuetzen thrown in.

Boats
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
bnice
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1845
Location: Iowa
Joined: Nov 30th, 2006
Re: Offhand progression
Reply #4 - Oct 23rd, 2008 at 6:37am
Print Post  
The whole key to the buzzer and shooting is the developement of your focus. by doing the training they are teaching you to clear your mind and center your focus on the lights. the emptier your head of verbal thoughts and the more centered you are on the target the more apt you are to sub conciuosly react at the right time. Visuallization is also part of this training. The more you can train your brain to recognize the target the quicker it will realize what it is looking at and be able to respond.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
tenx
Senior Forum Member
****
Offline



Posts: 385
Joined: Feb 23rd, 2008
Re: Offhand progression
Reply #5 - Oct 23rd, 2008 at 9:50am
Print Post  
Boats,

  From a personal standpoint I've shot a lot of trap and Skeet and haven't found it to have helped in the jerking and chicken finger bit at all. Still do both when shooting offhand.

  As bnice points out focusing on the bullseye and center of the crosshairs helps. You, or I anyway, can always tell when I've shot an "X" or 25 because everything seems to come together. The crosshairs align just as the trigger sub-consciously goes off. If I consciously squeeze/pull the trigger when things are lined up invariably the crosshairs won't be when I "will" the shot off. 

  Of course as xxgrampa says it helps if you can hold somewhere on the paper!  Smiley I'm not at that point yet but it sure isn't as solid as it was even 5 yrs. ago. I guess it's the German in me that says offhand is the only way to shoot Schuetzen, and if they outlawed bench I'd still be out there shooting even if I came in dead last.

PETE
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
leadball
Ex Member


Re: Offhand progression
Reply #6 - Oct 23rd, 2008 at 10:05am
Print Post  
boats;
         I wonder too if the German's had it right. I've tried to shoot a semi-heavy 12# rifle for fifteen years, I recently aquired a German Aydt, the rifle seems made just for me, I shot it better the first week,iron sights of course, than I've every shot anyother rifle, so maybe these barrel heavy American rifles are just harder for some of us to master.  Now i'm wondering what would happen if I put a scope on the Aydt--I know its an ugly thought but I wonder.   leadball
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
waterman
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 2827
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain
Joined: Jun 9th, 2004
Re: Offhand progression
Reply #7 - Oct 23rd, 2008 at 10:10am
Print Post  
I started 4-position shooting more than 50 years ago.  I had been into it for about a year and was struggling with offhand (at age 19) when an old shooter (a guy over 40) told me about the 3 to 5 seconds.  He was right then and is even righter now.

Here on the left coast, we held a match last Sunday with a different approach to offhand.  Not a Schuetzen match.  I had the only single shot.  The other guys had those rifles with pieces of polished-up rebar sticking out of the side of a slidy thing.   I'll let Paul F tell you about it when his voice recovers. Wink
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
boats
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 7540
Location: Virginia
Joined: Apr 23rd, 2004
Re: Offhand progression
Reply #8 - Oct 23rd, 2008 at 10:28am
Print Post  
Lot to think about here , appreciate the input from all.   One thing in common with the Shotgunners and fast Steel plate pistols shooters.   They focus on the target not the sights.  When the sights cross the  intended spot then they break.   Most times precison rifle shooters do it the other way around primary focus is on the rifles sight.

Pete you are right when you break a center you know it.  Tell you another thing.  Breaking a wide miss I can predect exactly were it's going to be on the target.  Even bad shots your eye sees were it's going with a remarkable degree of precesion.

Leadball, my 7 1/2 lb sporter class Bolt Silouette gun is real muzzle light. And in pratice on the ASSRA target there is little difference in scores between it and my 14 lb Schuetzen,  I suspect if fatigue is an issue there is an advantage to the light gun,  Only thing about the heavy muzzle is it slows down your swing.   

Anyway offhand those 3-5 seconds are the ones important. 

Boats
« Last Edit: Oct 23rd, 2008 at 10:36am by boats »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Joe_S
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 996
Joined: Jun 29th, 2004
Re: Offhand progression
Reply #9 - Oct 26th, 2008 at 9:08pm
Print Post  
I believe timing and rythem are important. I try to get my shot off in less than ten seconds. When I am able to do so I develope a rythem and scores improve. I recall that twenty years ago the sigthts would settle on the target and the bullet was on its way. Now , the sights are on, then off, then on, then off and I just do not have the reaction time I used to have. I do not think my hold has deteriorated, but  know my reaction time has, so I am looking for a way to increase it. This last summer, I tried to get into a rythem of squeezing off the shot a second or two after  the target was acquired, the sigts are usually still or moving very slowly for a short time before the swing starts to increase. I shot some good scores but there is still room for improvement, I think there must be a better way to improve reaction time, but I do not know what it is. I do know one thing, shooting a bunch of different rifles with different triggers will drive you crazy,especially if some are miitary rifles such as Mausers and trapdoors with eight or ten pound trigger pulls.  For serious practice, stick to the rifle you will be shooting in the match for the week or so before the match to re-acquire the familiarity with your trigger. Look out for the guy who only has one gun. Joe S
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: 1
Send TopicPrint