I have re-barreled a High Wall in .38-72 for Creedmoor events with a top notch barrel maker(?), and was extremely disappointed in the results.(long story) 
I have heard over the years of Ron Smith barrels, especially from the Schuetzen  contingent. Are his gain-twist barrels cut or button rifled? Is gain-twist the way to go, or is it an outmoded art? Do they incorporate a choked muzzle end? Any information you might have would be appreciated before I contact him. I am looking for references rather than sale pitches. Thanks........JimK

I have a gain-twist  33 caliber Ron Smith barrel  that I have been shooting for a few years. I am very happy with the barrel and could not ask for a better barrel. I'm not totally convinced that there is any advantage to the gain-twist in a breech-loader so I bought a straight twist barrel from him but have not used it yet.

Bob,
Trust me, I have put 1K rounds down this barrel with three custom bullets, different alloys, powders, etc. I know when you have a bad barrel. BTW, it was barreled by a top smith in the BPCR game. I do not believe a barrel will change over night with no change in load. Like I said, the barrel is supporting tomatoes in the garden and I am interested in any info on Ron Smith barrels. Thank you for your reply and concern..........JimK

Another thing that might be of interest, I know of a 38-72 H.M. Pope barrel and it is straight twist, not gain.   

You might get a barrel from Pope faster than Boots Obermeyer 

Dave, 
  Id like to explore this a bit if you'll allow me. First I'm not trying to dispute the quality of the barrels, nor would I sugest anybody without pro expierience to lapp their own barrel but a couple questions. First, a barrel is a manufactured product and lke any has certain production variences. I'd wonder about ANYBODY being abe to consistanty make cuts to 1/tenthousanth. That being said , how does he measure those dimensions and what gets measured? The reason I ask is that you have 2 ways only to do do this, one precise one not. You can either use pins to measure the groove diameter, which then leaves an open question on your bore diameter-which is probably where most of that taper is, or you can slug the bore which is far less precise but will give you some sense of dimension and taper. That process requires a heck of a lot of slugging, reversing the slugs, bumping them up, etc.etc. 
  So in the end while they may very well be exceptional barrels, the claims make about the extremely precise dimensional charactoristics may be a bit more elusive. I have spent the last couple years learning and working with a gentleman that recently passed away that was a master at fitting, lapping, and shooting some rimfire match barrels and most of that knowledge died with him. As an example, however, Chet lapped and fitted six different barrels that , to this day, are the only ones ever to shoot perfect 250-25x targets on an IR50 rimfire benchrest target. They do not stand as world records because they were not shot in registered matches but they were all shot and witnessed in front of some of the sport's most accomplished shhoters, most of which sit in the hall of fame in that discipline. His works actually is practiced by a couple of the best barrel makers in the USA that serve both the rimfire and centerfire shooters so I'm not trying to just "blow smoke" here.

Thanks again Dave. Again, nobody's trying to dispute the quality of the product, but also nobody in the entire barrel world, and it's big, can keep tolerances to a tenth, or even a few tenths.

Without getting into other aspects of this conversation (I'll play "fly on the wall" for most of it, even though I have my own opinions...).

There is a third way to measure bore dimensions, but it's not one that any barrel maker I'm aware of uses.  Laser bore-gage.  Read about it on a professional machinist site, and naturally my very first thought was "hey, you could measure rifle barrels with one of those!".  Accurate to 50 millionths (in a temperture controlled environment, of course). That's half a ten-thousandth.
The discussion also mentioned the price; several hundred thousand dollars... which is why it's unlikely any barrel maker is going to be running one in a temperture controlled metrology room any time soon.

Be darn nice to borrow some time on one, in that metrology lab though!   

Sorry for the interruption.... please continue

Paul F.

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This is hard to argue!  Maybe if I pay to entrance fees both halves can shoot their own matches.

Brent

Thank, Dave, Joe and SDave.................
That is what I was looking for. Now I might have more intelligent questions when I phone Ron. 
I appreciate all the responses.......................JimK

I too would be curious to know the details of whether Ron's bbls are tapered in their bores or grooves or both, and the details of his methodology in achieving his results. I don't doubt his dimensional achievements, I'm just curious about the details of how he does it.

As I understand it, most custom barrelmakers first drill, then ream, then lap the bore; apparently this is where some makers achieve their taper. The actual rifling operation usually removes so little metal with each pass that it's possible to maintain a very smooth surface finish if the tool is ground & polished  properly, but it's unclear to me how the rifling operation itself can produce a tapered bore.

However I recall another thread on this forum in which the tapered bore of the 577/450 Martini service rifle was described. I can only assume that these supposedly mass-produced barrels did not have their bores hand-lapped to the required taper since that would appear to be entirely too labor-intensive, but rather it seems more probable to me that the taper was achieved mechanically in some fashion.

FYI many if not all factory Pedersoli barrels have tapered bores, I've heard that they are broached. Also an outfit called Blackstar (I believe) has advertised barrels with tapered bores; these were advertised as being micro-honed (or some such buzzword) to their final super-smooth tapered finish. I can personally testify to the Pedersolis' usually superb accuracy but have never examined a Blackstar barrel.
Regards, Joe

As we all know the barrel maker can do his best but if the barrel is not installed or chambered by someone who understands the game a lot can be lost. 

Two things about a Ron Smith barrel that impressed me.  One, when the barrel was mounted between the headstock and the cat head and both ends were indicated (plug gauge in bore) to zero runout, the lathe then run at high-speed the bore appeared to be motionless, a straighter bore I have never seen.  The second thing is with a button tip on a cleaning  rod and patch in the bore I would be hard pressed to tell you if I was cleaning a Pope or a Smith barrel.  If you have ever cleaned a Pope barrel you know what I’m talking about. 

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I have heard of Boots being slow. A friend called Boots within the last year about getting a .30 barrel and was told by Mr. Obermeyer that he had been tied up for some time making M14 barrel for dear old uncle. Those guys just about all have to rely on their "bread and butter" work for cash flow. Guess we should be happy Marines can be confident their M14s will shoot straight.

Obermeyer barrels have always had a sterling reputation in Service Rifle (M1 and M14 era) and Palma shooting.

And they've always been tough to get. As JD Steele mentioned, he's been doing Government contracts for decades, and only gets time now and then for non-contract production of barrels.

Best shooting M-1A I've ever seen had an Obermeyer barrel on it... Sadly, it wasn't mine!

Paul F.

Jimofatl wrote on Jul 12^th, 2008 at 5:26pm:



+1.... Ron Smith tried to talk me into a SS barrel, told him if he could rust blue it go ahead.

The consensus appears to be that the Benchrest crowd uses stainless almost exclusively for both CF & RF while many military and Highpower shooters seem to prefer CM for their CF shooting. The long range (1000 yds & over) shooters that I know seem to prefer stainless. Schuetzen and BPCR shooters almost always choose CM.

The use of a particular material or a particular rifling method doesn't guarantee anything, except that the barrel is made that particulat way. 
Any honest smith or barrelmaker will readily admit that there are no guarantees as to accuracy. However IMO there are some things that can be done to help the odds along a bit, and the two most important IMO are to use the best quality materials that are affordable along with the best quality workmanship that's affordable.

For suggestions as to 'the best', check the equipment lists of the record-holders in your preferred disclipline. Don't worry about the majority of the shooters, check only the record-holders. And check plenty of 'em, too, because you'll find that there is more than one 'best' in many areas.

For instance I've had a wide range of accuracy results from many of the more prominent barrelmakers like Douglas & Shilen & Badger, which maybe is to be expected from any mass-produced item. But I've also had somewhat spotty results from some of the smaller custom makers as well, such as Hart, K&P, Kreiger & others. It's frequently somewhat of a crap-shoot, and most any dedicated Benchrest shooter will tell you quite quickly that he'll discard more barrels than he'll actually campaign in any given time period.

I won't offer any opinions about smiths except to say that anyone can find someone to say something bad about anyone else, so I don't pay much attention to one unfortunate instance or one negative opinion necessarily. However, kinda like seeking a new doctor, it's A Good Thing to get more than one opinion about smiths. I know one prominent single shot smith whom I would never trust with anything of mine, yet he seems to enjoy quite a following in some circles. Again, I suggest that you look at the smiths of the record-holders' rifles.
Good luck, Joe

For years I belived that stainless steel and fine lead bullet accuracy were mutually exclusive. Then I started to see RKS barrels pop up in the winnwe circles. I decided to put a smith barrel on a bench gun. When I talked to Ron he made no bones about his perference for stainless. I decided to listen as long as I went to him for his expertise I thought I ought to listen. Best decision I ever made The rifle is a tack driver in stainless.

40 Rod

My Ruger 30-20 has a Dan Pedersen (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links) cut rifled stainless barrel on it.  That rig will flat out shoot if I remember to do my part!      

Years ago Doug Shilen told me that stainless barrel steels are a bit softer than chrome moly steels, but resist throat erosion much better.  You just have to be a bit more careful in cleaning to avoid rod damage on either the throat or crown.   

David
Montezuma, IA

.

For instance I've had a wide range of accuracy results from many of the more prominent barrelmakers like Douglas & Shilen & Badger, which maybe is to be expected from any mass-produced item. But I've also had somewhat spotty results from some of the smaller custom makers as well, such as Hart, K&P, Kreiger & others. 
Good luck, Joe [/quote]


Hart and Krieger "small"?????? Joe, with all due respect you might want to take a fresh look as to who's who in the barrel community. Douglas is a "semi-custom" maker, Badger is a 'niche" maker. Hart does everthing from br to bushmaster factory barrels and I can assure you is not what I'd call small as I'm down there several times a year. Kreiger probably does more br group shooters barrels than anybody else, and that would be world wide.

All depends upon your frame of reference, Tim, as you pointed out. I haven't used a Hart barrel (either Hart) since the '60s and am glad to hear that it's a bigger outfit these days.

When I hear the words 'large barrelmaker' I tend to think of outfits like Green Mountain, where they make more than 1,000 barrels per day. GM makes both cut-rifled and buttoned barrels and their barrels have held and still hold many single shot shooting records. Rick Sanborn, their head honcho, is an extremely nice and knowlegeable fellow and can give you more details.

I actually thought Douglas and Shilen were of approximately the same size and capacity; are you saying that Douglas is smaller than I thought?
Regards, Joe

Well, again it kinda depends upon your frame of reference. I wouldn't classify either GM or Douglas as primarily a match barrel maker, but their barrels hold many, many records. Actually I imagine, between the two makers, their products hold about as many single shot records as any of the others. As with most makers, their very best products are the equal of any other shop's; the difference IMO lies in their QC and the fact that they market more than one grade of barrel.

Even guys like Tony Whatshisname, the fellow that wins all the Benchrest goodies every year, will readily admit that he gets 'hummers' from Douglas regularly. The rub is that he also has to discard lots of barrels, from lots of different makers, because, again, IMO no one can guarantee a barrel's accuracy prior to shooting. Kenny Jarrett, the well-known bean-field rifle builder, has said that he frequently discards as many as 2 out of 3 barrels, and he theoretically uses only the best.

I personally have sometimes gotten mediocre results from both Douglas and GM, but the most accurate barrel I currently own is a Douglas 30 cal that shoots in the .3s and my GM 45-90 is by far the most accurate big-bore barrel I've ever fired. So, as I said, sometimes it seems like a crap-shoot.

Another barrel that I recommend is the Lothar Walther as sold by Brownell's. I've used only a few and none were 'hummers' but none were mediocre either. All have been sub-MOA performers and clean up really easily, apparently they're quite smooth inside and in my experience they have been very consistent performers, at least so far they have done well for me. My own Mauser 223 sporter with LW bbl shoots in the .6s and I'm happy with that.
Regards, Joe

I heard of RKS barrels from a few guys I shoot with once in awhile,  I being frugal checked into RKS barrels and decided to buy one in 32 cal.

I called talked to Ron, he gives good info and then asked me what groove diameter I wanted, when it came it was dead nuts on the 321 I asked for, and the taper was just as Sdave said, as best as I can measure it.

When it came I eye balled down the bore and I have NEVER seen a brand new barrel that looked like it was broke in already, it was smooth as glass, I wish I had a borescope.

If I were to buy another barrel I would be on the phone to Ron, no qualms at all, no matter what cal it was.

Oh, I shot the best scores I have ever shot the first time out with that barrel, and was told, "It gets better when it breaks in"

The barrels are not manufactured, Ron makes them once they are ordered, one at a time.

It took longer to get it through customs than to make it.

Tim, please see your Precision Shooting back issues for the interview with him a few years back. If memory serves, he confessed to trying as many as a half-dozen barrels in a season, many of them from different makers. However that was a few (over 10 IIRC) years ago and things may have changed. I've used a number of Kreiger barrels up to 50 cal and have had no bums but no hummers either, still have one on a Mauser sporter in 280 Rem and it won't set anyone's house on fire in the accuracy department, only about 1.25 MOA with game bullets.

Please buy whatever you want, that's why they make chocolate and vanilla. All I can do is report what I believe to be true and what is my opinion. My Douglas 30 cal air-gauge will blow the doors off any Krieger or any Shilen or almost any other I've ever seen or fired above 24 cal and my old (only example, unfortunately now traded) RKS 32-40 SS gain-twist was superb in every way. OTOH I've had some Douglas & Shilen bbls that simply wouldn't shoot accurately for me or anyone else I tried. Goes back to what I said earlier about quality control and different levels of barrel quality by the same maker. BTW GM holds plenty of single shot records, FWIW. Probably more than Krieger for that matter and lots more than Shilen for instance.

Like the Madam said to the Bishop, "You pays your money and you takes your choice!" I have used and continue to use lots of different makers' barrels but recommend only a few.
Regards, Joe

These kinds of threads are always fun and educational for me. If I had to sum up, while in the discipline that I compete in, I shoot or have shot barrels that include Hart, Shilen, Lilja, Broughton, Krieger, Calfee. That being said there is now just a tremendous amount of experimentation and developement going on in the barrel making community and much of it will lead to the betterment of ALL the shooting sports.

Does Ron make nonstainless barrels?  I've always wondered about that.  I can't see owning a stainless Winchester or Ballard or Sharps.  But I have never heard of his barrels being anything but stainless.  I have also never heard of them shooting anything less than spectacular.

Brent

Brent,

Ron will make a CM barrel, although he prefers SS, since it "finishes" better. He, also, prefers 6 groove over 8 groove barrels.That might be because it takes less time. IMHO

I ordered a CM barrel with 8 grooves. From what I have heard, that should not be a detriment. 

As an aside, the small additional price you pay for his barrel, should be a better gamble than buying a Pac Nor, Lilja, Hart, etc...........JimK (another member of "The Barrel of the Month Club")


 

Jimofatl wrote on Jul 15^th, 2008 at 6:22pm:

With all due respect, that last statement is uterly baseless and frankly in bad taste.

Again, thanks all, for a very informative string; and especially Tim_s for showing my shortcomings......... .........JimK

Well Joe I'll explain. You like the guy's barrels, great, good luck god bless, buy whatever blows your skirt up. When you go the extra mile to add the backhanded veiled slap at 3 other outfits whose products probably have never been used first hand, frankly..... bad taste.

tim_s wrote on Jul 16^th, 2008 at 9:52pm:


Well Tim_s, I think that Jim showed remarkable restraint in just a "backhanded veiled slap"  in his statement about some makers that I know for a fact that he has "used first hand" and spent considerable amount of time and money in efforts to get the tomato stakes to shoot ! You made a an assumption based upon what, certainly not your personal knowledge, but upon a self-professed expertise on all things related to the current crop of makers. I sincerely believe that your post was the one in "bad taste." 

choken wrote on Jul 16^th, 2008 at 11:54pm:


Ken:

That may be a bit of a stretch. He does, after all, live in Atlanta...


Glenn

choken wrote on Jul 16^th, 2008 at 11:37pm:


Well....nanny nanny nah nah, I'm right you're wrong so there!!!

I don't know that every bbl any of them make is a "tack driver" and as we all know there are at the very least a half dozen other variables involved in driving those tacks besides the bbl.  I know that Dale Reynolds made a believer out of me that PacNor has made at least one good bbl when he shot two 250's in the same relay at the Spring Match at EG.  And of course convinced me that he is a pretty good shot and reader of the conditions also.  - the rimfire - cdpersons

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Same can be said for shooters. Like cream, the good ones will rise to the top. takes more than just equipment to beat them.