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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Custom Barrel Makers? (Read 35530 times)
Jimofatl
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Custom Barrel Makers?
Jul 10th, 2008 at 6:09pm
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I have re-barreled a High Wall in .38-72 for Creedmoor events with a top notch barrel maker(?), and was extremely disappointed in the results.(long story) 
I have heard over the years of Ron Smith barrels, especially from the Schuetzen  contingent. Are his gain-twist barrels cut or button rifled? Is gain-twist the way to go, or is it an outmoded art? Do they incorporate a choked muzzle end? Any information you might have would be appreciated before I contact him. I am looking for references rather than sale pitches. Thanks........JimK
  
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GWarden
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Re: Custom Barrel Makers?
Reply #1 - Jul 10th, 2008 at 7:03pm
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JimK
The bbl you were not pleased with, did you shoot it very much? I had a bbl from one of the custom bbl makers that didn't shoot worth beans at first. I was about ready to give up on it after 600rds through it. Was going to give it one more shooting session, it was amazing, all at once it became a real tack driver.  I didn't change a thing to have made it start shooting good. I had another bbl. in the same cal. and was using the same proven load in both bbls. 
Bob 
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Dave_Carpenter
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Re: Custom Barrel Makers?
Reply #2 - Jul 10th, 2008 at 7:31pm
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I have a gain-twist  33 caliber Ron Smith barrel  that I have been shooting for a few years. I am very happy with the barrel and could not ask for a better barrel. I'm not totally convinced that there is any advantage to the gain-twist in a breech-loader so I bought a straight twist barrel from him but have not used it yet.
  
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dick_norton
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Re: Custom Barrel Makers?
Reply #3 - Jul 10th, 2008 at 7:56pm
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I am happy to report that I have recently acquired a Green Mtn. barrel which was gunsmithed, a major factor, by Verl Sigman. I've shot many
other .32-40 barrels in schuetzen events and this is equal to, and superior to most, of any of the others.

dick
  
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Jimofatl
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Re: Custom Barrel Makers?
Reply #4 - Jul 10th, 2008 at 9:27pm
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Bob,
Trust me, I have put 1K rounds down this barrel with three custom bullets, different alloys, powders, etc. I know when you have a bad barrel. BTW, it was barreled by a top smith in the BPCR game. I do not believe a barrel will change over night with no change in load. Like I said, the barrel is supporting tomatoes in the garden and I am interested in any info on Ron Smith barrels. Thank you for your reply and concern..........JimK
  
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J.D.Steele
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Re: Custom Barrel Makers?
Reply #5 - Jul 10th, 2008 at 10:34pm
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I've owned and shot one RKS gain-twist barrel and it was as accurate as any barrel I have ever owned, and more accurate than 99%. Period. However it was a 32-40 and that ain't apples-to-apples with a BPCR.

If it wuz me, I'd query Ron himself about his recommendations. His accuracy is second to none and he has a great rep. The only barrel-maker guy I know who maybe has a better rep is Boots Obermeyer. But then again Boots is a legend...
Good luck, Joe
  
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Dave_Carpenter
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Re: Custom Barrel Makers?
Reply #6 - Jul 10th, 2008 at 11:52pm
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Another thing that might be of interest, I know of a 38-72 H.M. Pope barrel and it is straight twist, not gain.   

You might get a barrel from Pope faster than Boots Obermeyer  Roll Eyes
  
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tim_s
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Re: Custom Barrel Makers?
Reply #7 - Jul 11th, 2008 at 8:51am
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Dave,
    I would be more than a little interested to learn how consistant that claim of 4 tenths taper per barrel might be, my guess is that while they may average that, it is virtually impossible to accomplish through machining unless the temperature of the room, tooling, blanks, virtually everything is kept at a labratory consistant temp.
  As to the lapping comment, I appologise if this comes across too contrary, but it has been the subject of a lot of study, research, and effort on my part, and before this thread thy ONLY way to induce consistant taper in a barrel has been through lapping. It is the system used by virtually every rimfire match barrel maker in this country and I mention it primarily because the rimfire barrels have pretty much been been proven to perform better with taper although this is not uncommon in center fire barrels as well.
     That being said, ther is tremendous varience in barrels, even from the same maker. Every lot of steel represents  a new challange. You'd be surprised as too how many barrels go back because of dimensional variences.
  

“ I don’t have to be faster than the bear, I just have to be faster than you”
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tim_s
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Re: Custom Barrel Makers?
Reply #8 - Jul 11th, 2008 at 11:21am
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Dave, 
  Id like to explore this a bit if you'll allow me. First I'm not trying to dispute the quality of the barrels, nor would I sugest anybody without pro expierience to lapp their own barrel but a couple questions. First, a barrel is a manufactured product and lke any has certain production variences. I'd wonder about ANYBODY being abe to consistanty make cuts to 1/tenthousanth. That being said , how does he measure those dimensions and what gets measured? The reason I ask is that you have 2 ways only to do do this, one precise one not. You can either use pins to measure the groove diameter, which then leaves an open question on your bore diameter-which is probably where most of that taper is, or you can slug the bore which is far less precise but will give you some sense of dimension and taper. That process requires a heck of a lot of slugging, reversing the slugs, bumping them up, etc.etc. 
  So in the end while they may very well be exceptional barrels, the claims make about the extremely precise dimensional charactoristics may be a bit more elusive. I have spent the last couple years learning and working with a gentleman that recently passed away that was a master at fitting, lapping, and shooting some rimfire match barrels and most of that knowledge died with him. As an example, however, Chet lapped and fitted six different barrels that , to this day, are the only ones ever to shoot perfect 250-25x targets on an IR50 rimfire benchrest target. They do not stand as world records because they were not shot in registered matches but they were all shot and witnessed in front of some of the sport's most accomplished shhoters, most of which sit in the hall of fame in that discipline. His works actually is practiced by a couple of the best barrel makers in the USA that serve both the rimfire and centerfire shooters so I'm not trying to just "blow smoke" here.
  

“ I don’t have to be faster than the bear, I just have to be faster than you”
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Brent
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Re: Custom Barrel Makers?
Reply #9 - Jul 11th, 2008 at 12:42pm
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Jimofatl wrote on Jul 10th, 2008 at 6:09pm:
I have re-barreled a High Wall in .38-72 for Creedmoor events with a top notch barrel maker(?), and was extremely disappointed in the results.(long story)


Boy that sounds familiar.  I have a highwall rebarreled with a Douglas premium barrel in .38-72 also.  It does not shoot bad, but me and her are still learnin' to dance.  Here is a pretty good example of what I'm dealing with - this shot yesterday at 200 yds.  We are getting there, but this two group thing, one above the other, is the story of my life.  I have three rifles that do this all the time.  The .38 did it yesterday with two different loads - out of two attempts.  It is no fluke.

Brent

  
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tim_s
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Re: Custom Barrel Makers?
Reply #10 - Jul 11th, 2008 at 12:43pm
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Thanks again Dave. Again, nobody's trying to dispute the quality of the product, but also nobody in the entire barrel world, and it's big, can keep tolerances to a tenth, or even a few tenths.
  

“ I don’t have to be faster than the bear, I just have to be faster than you”
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Brent
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Re: Custom Barrel Makers?
Reply #11 - Jul 11th, 2008 at 1:08pm
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tim_s wrote on Jul 11th, 2008 at 12:43pm:
Thanks again Dave. Again, nobody's trying to dispute the quality of the product, but also nobody in the entire barrel world, and it's big, can keep tolerances to a tenth, or even a few tenths.


Man are you guys a bunch of slackers.  Hell, DanT can lap his moulds to a tenth of a tenth (0.0001").  All on his drill press of course.  Check it out : (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

  
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Paul_F.
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Re: Custom Barrel Makers?
Reply #12 - Jul 11th, 2008 at 1:08pm
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Without getting into other aspects of this conversation (I'll play "fly on the wall" for most of it, even though I have my own opinions...).

There is a third way to measure bore dimensions, but it's not one that any barrel maker I'm aware of uses.  Laser bore-gage.  Read about it on a professional machinist site, and naturally my very first thought was "hey, you could measure rifle barrels with one of those!".  Accurate to 50 millionths (in a temperture controlled environment, of course). That's half a ten-thousandth.
The discussion also mentioned the price; several hundred thousand dollars... which is why it's unlikely any barrel maker is going to be running one in a temperture controlled metrology room any time soon.

Be darn nice to borrow some time on one, in that metrology lab though!   

Sorry for the interruption.... please continue Smiley

Paul F.
  
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Paul_F.
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Re: Custom Barrel Makers?
Reply #13 - Jul 11th, 2008 at 1:15pm
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Quote:

Boy that sounds familiar. . . .   We are getting there, but this two group thing, one above the other, is the story of my life.  I have three rifles that do this all the time.  The .38 did it yesterday with two different loads - out of two attempts.  It is no fluke.

Brent




Brent;

An olympic medalist in Smallbore Prone explained that phenomenon to me once... (two groups)...
"Obviously the two hemispheres of your brain are having a disagreement with each other".
Cheesy

Since I couldn't afford to have one half removed (in more ways than one), I looked for other solutions... but every time I see a shooter with two distinct groups on a target in the same string, I recall the conversation.

Paul F.
  
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Brent
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Re: Custom Barrel Makers?
Reply #14 - Jul 11th, 2008 at 1:17pm
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Quote:

"Obviously the two hemispheres of your brain are having a disagreement with each other".
Cheesy



This is hard to argue!  Maybe if I pay to entrance fees both halves can shoot their own matches.

Brent

  
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