If you're looking at takedown rifles, you're looking for either a rare original or a Ballard.  The receivers are different on the takedowns.

David
Montezuma, IA

Paul,
Frank Zika makes takedown irons but they will not work on a standard action.
The take down action is a coil spring action and is not cut in at the face for the forend. 
Cheers,
Laurie

To my knowledge, C. Sharps, Meacham.

I spoke to Ballard LLC right after I saw that they were offering the takedown model. They confirmed that they were indeed making a coilspring action now. In my opinion if you want to do a takedown project and don't have the action already then Ballard is the best cheapest option. Other coil spring high wall actions can be altered to accept the takedown assembly but that is after you already paid for the action. The expense would be more than if you just went to Ballard in the first place. 

40 Rod

Thanks to everyone for the replies!

I did find that article in the Journal about the Zika barrel extension, but found it too late at night to read it, I will brush up on it after work.

Thanks to all for fixing that misconception I had about 'em

I will be keeping my eyes open for an original action suitable to rebuild.. but I never seem to have money (or visa space) when they come up...   

Oh, and Mori; that local stockmaker is who I'd planned to ask (beg) first... first I need to acquire a variety of shiny objects he may be interested in (plus money) to entice him

This is probably going to be quite a long term project given my finances... but, never started, never finished!

I'm liking the idea of a C. Sharps action, with Meachem triggers/lever... 
That and a Ballard take-down with double triggers as an action are on my "call" list.

Regarding the Uberti; 
I see little difference in "rebuilding" a buggered original, vs rebuilding (up to and including re-machining some parts) the Uberti.  Like with some Chinese tools, if treated as a "casting kit", they can be made useable.  The couple Uberti's I've seen locally have actually been surprisingly nice, and well fit (at least those parts visible without taking it apart).
They're damn sure no Meacham, but they're also $5000 cheaper than a Meacham, and a guy can do a lot of remachinging, rebarreling, restocking, re-color case, etc for $5000....
Still, NOT the top of my list... but not OFF the list either.

Lots to think about..
(good to know I didn't miss any makers that might make exactly what I'm looking for... sorta..)
Paul F.

Paul, second try. Here is the answer to your Dream.

1) Start looking for and buy a Winder Musket Takedown Hiwall Rifle complete. Hopefully one with a rotten bore.

2) This action now is the core of your Schuetzen. Contact Ballard and arrange to have them fit it up with their Wide spaced Double Set Trigger pistol grip lower Tang. Be carefull here as there are variations in Pistol grip shape from early to late Schuetzens and Deluxe sporting models. Also the Lever of your choice.

3) Arrange with competent quality Gunsmith to have the Rifle built up the way you want. Ballard is also capable of doing this work. I have seen some really nice example's of Ballard Hiwalls and they were nice.
But have not seen a full Schuetzen from them as of yet.

By the way the Hiwalls from the Coil Spring and Takedown era were by Winchester standard all Blued actions as that had become their standard of manufacture for the Model 1885. I have been collecting and accumilating Hiwalls for 46 years and have not seen to date a factory color cased coil spring or takedown reciever. 

Now I expect to see all kinds of howling here about the strength of the Winder actions for centerfire calibers. But the truth is the model 1885 got it's robust strength from design not heat treat of the material. Not to say proper heat treat does not help. But if you look around you will find plenty of Winder Musket Actions that have been rebarreled in what can only be described as modern high pressure woodchuck calibers. I presently have a "Built of Parts" takedown Hiwall that was a  winder musket action with a 30-40 Krag Takedown Barrel I assembled it with. I shoot it with fairly stiff loads of smokeless and Jacketed bullets. It  has an original Winchester #3 Nickle Steel barrel and swallows 37 Gr 3031 and 180 Sierra jacketed bullets with ease. 

This dream Schuetzen is gonna cost you somewhere in the price range of $4,000.00 or more depending on the Grade of Wood, Checkering, Sights and stuff etc.
Other than wanting it to be Takedown you can just plain order it from Ballard or Meacham. I have a Meacham Hiwall in 40-70 SS and it is a well built rifle with only a few Minor changes from the original Winchester design that I feel ARE beneficial. Ballard arms I believe has stayed true to the complete original design. There just is not any way around this price figure today for a Hiwall Schuetzen. HTH, Regards FITZ

That's why they call them dreams, Vall!  

I was fortunate enough to acquire the take-down action I have been building on nearly 20 years ago in a trade when it was an ugly sporter.  I got one of Ben Rice's last sets of DSTs before his passing, a Walker style lever (from a Shelton casting) and the necessary barrel extension lug from a dealer.  In the intervening years it has been restocked 3 times and rebarreled twice and is now heading toward being my interpretation of a Laudensack Schuetzen model.  It has both barrels available now that Frank Zika is making the barrel lugs and should have a third installed soon.  If I had to replace it all at once, the dream would be a nightmare!!  

I bet you have some Ballard stories that are almost as involved though, don't you Vall?

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!  

Froggie

PS  BTW, I would wholeheartedly agree with FITZ on the most likely donor action, if indeed one can be found in a reasonable time.  OR you could just send a blank check to Ballard, and they could build exactly what you want in about 6-10 weeks!  

Paul,
I sent you a PM

waterman

SSDave;

Thank you for your perspective!

I may indeed eventually modify my plan to two (or more) rifles...
But it's far too early to lower my standards! I haven't spent enough time, money, or effort tilting at windwills to give up on that nice cased set with two barrels, etc... (and yeah.. I'm thinking nice leather hard case too..).

Reality may beat me back down to earth... but not before I've at least designed this setup on paper (and probably using Excel to total the cost, and become frightened...).



Over the next few months, I'll see if I can have a chat with Ballard, C. Sharps, and Meacham, and see what combinations would be possible from them individually or in conjunction.
Hell, I could get really nuts and get a set of plans from Buffalo Arms (and/or the Archives) and some hunks of 8620 and 4140/4340 and get better with a lathe and mill then I am now.  OK.. that's probably overly ambitious...  At least right now 

Thanks again to everyone who has shared their opinions! I may be too stubborn or stupid to always take good advice, but I DO appreciate it!

Paul F.

I have a similar dream of a hi-wall ss rifle.At the Baltimore Gun Show this year, I aquired a new 2002, in the white, Ballard manufactured Winchester hiwall barreled action in 4140 steel.It has the thin walled action, Helm large Lever dst-wide spaced, pistol grip, 32in. Douglas octagon #5 barrel, chambered 32-40 win., with a fitted fancy grade forearm. I shoot NSSA ,and my fondest dream is a #2 Maynard,percussion,50 cal., which I would even trade my recently aquired hiwall barreled action for.......jim

benchrest guys switch barrels at range all the time. get a barrel vise and action wrench. lot cheaper than takedown action. nothing to loosen up either barrel screws directly into receiver. no real problem.as long as u use same parent case u can have as many barrels as u want.
tom

Paul, Have taken a good look at a CPA rifle? You can get switch barrels complete with forearms from them. They shoot very well and can be obtained with unfinished wood on them for a most reasonable price! More bang for your buck. Not a hi-wall but close. Mori

Hello Paul,

As several of the other fellows mentioned, your best bet at finding an original Winchester high-wall takedown at a "reasonable" price, is a Second variation high-wall Winder Musket. I also agree that the strength of the frame and action is not an issue. 

Just to give you an idea of what you are up against (in an effort to find an original), I have surveyed 5,253 original Winchester Model 1885s. Of that number, exactly 116 were high-wall takedowns. Broken down into precise numbers by variation, they fall out as follows;

39 - 2nd variation High-wall Winder Muskets
27 - Third Model Schuetzen Rifles
26 - High-wall Shotguns
21 - Plain Sporting Rifles
2 - Special Sporting Rifles
1 - Special Single Shot Rifle

I own one of the Plain Sporting Rifles (the pictures below)... and no, it is not for sale

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It is a real odd-ball rifle in that it is a high-wall, chambered for 22 Short, with a 24" No. 3 octagon barrel, and it is an early enough serial number that I was able to get a factory letter for it.

Bert

I have never seen a draw back in accuracy when it comes to Stevens 44 1/2s or custom Ballards with the cross pin take down device. I had a Winchester take down too, but it was in.22 short and iron sights so it is hard to say about that one.

I have shot both and talk from experience.

Naturally you want the take down device set up right. I am talking about a decent job with both takedown and solid frame. I've still not seen a difference.

It has been common in the past.

Sorry, Paul, I guess we were having a bad day or something.

I base my opinion on 40 years' experience owning, shooting, building and observing takedown rifles, both single shot and other. Am building a little Greener takedown Cadet right now, so I'm obviously not prejudiced against them.

The fact remains that almost all serious stool shooters abandoned their takedown rifles along about the same time that they abandoned their set triggers, IOW about 50 years ago. Now, that's not to say that some individual takedown rifles won't shoot tight groups, of course they will.

But I'm still waiting for a name of anyone who holds a benchrest record with a takedown rifle.
Regards, Joe

My input to this latest aspect of the discussion is this... Winchester made a fair number of Third Model (Takedown) Schuetzen Rifles, so they must not have believed it to be a detriment to accurate shooting.  From personal observation and knowledge, if the takedown fit is correct (tight), theorectically, there should be no loss in potential acuracy. That said, I can not speak from personal experience. The only Model 1885 Takedown I own is a 22 Short (and there is no accuracy loss as a result of the Takedown mechanism).

Bert

Hi All !!!

The reason you don’t see no take-down’s at the bench is the old wife’s tale about recoil and harmonics loosening up the “joint” at the connection due to pressure from the hard rest.

Can’t say its true, just what I heard…

Ed…

thop wrote on May 1^st, 2008 at 1:39pm:


That is another old "Wives tale". Winchester made lots of other models (repeaters) that were takedowns all the way up to the early 1960s.

Bert

thop wrote on May 1^st, 2008 at 1:39pm:


Heck, Marlin has been building a takedown .22 since 1897, and still builds it in the form of the 39a!

Some additional thoughts on the demise of "take-downs".   

The complexity, and therefore cost, of quality take-down actions is probably the single most likely factor in their disappearance from the market.  When manufacturers moved from hand fitting of machined pieces to stamping out or casting many pieces, including the use of plastics, to save five more cents in the cost of making a firearm, the "bean counters" won and the consumers lost.  Its all about market share and production costs and (unfortunately) consumers who want the cheapest possible product.

As for accuracy issues with take-down systems (and two-piece stocks), I seem to recall pictures of numerous take-down schuetzen and target model 1885's in Campbell's books that were factory-made and campaigned by some of the finest target shooters of the era.  More current examples of such systems and their accuracy potentials are seen in the Martini International series of single-shot target .22's.  I think the Mark III, IV, and V all have removable barrels (with a relatively simple cross-bolt system for barrel retention).  The Ruger 10-22 semi-auto's have a simple slip-fit and clamp barrel retention and the accuracy of some of the custom-tuned 10-22's (or their clones) is eyepopping.  The AR-15 clones that are now being tuned for target and varmint work can also be spectacularly accurate and still have removable and interchangeable barrels and two-piece stocks.

If you want a take-down 1885, unfortunately your choices are limited.  I would definitely go for the dream and take all of the discussion about accuracy potential with a grain of salt.  It sounds like your building a shooting rifle and not a 25-pound rail gun.

I have avoided getting into the solid frame vs takedown frame accuracy question because I am a little bit prejudiced in favor of the take-down frame regardless of ultimate accuracy.  All of the respondents who mention takedown rifles of the 19-teens are talking about OFFHAND rifles, and for the level of accuracy that game was requiring as opposed to benchrest and another order of magnitude of required accuracy. 

As a couple of previous posters noted, if you want a dedicated bench gun, a two piece stock is a detriment, much less a "two piece gun!"    I love my 'walls, but when I am shooting from the bench, my Peregrine is going to be on the bags. 

My attitude (and belief) is, a well set up take-down high-wall, CPA or Maynard will hold its own in offhand competition, and probably in BPCS as well, but for all out, money on the table bench rest, I'll get out the heaviest solid frame rifle I've got in the safe.  That's my story and I'm sticking to it! 

Froggie