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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) But what about the Ethics of breaking down SShots (Read 6707 times)
boats
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But what about the Ethics of breaking down SShots
Nov 23rd, 2007 at 9:16am
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On the SS Rifle page I asked about a High Wall Winder musket that was a marked import.  The rifle was sold before I got to it so the question was moot,

However,  Was it collectible and should the rifle be preserved as is or broken down for the action.

On it's collector value. Having owned a number of .22 trainer rifles over the years this one would not be particularly desirable to me.  It's not in great shape, bore is shootable but not good by any measure. And the rifle has been in my eyes ruined by importer of record markings engraved on the barrel.  It may be desirable to someone wanting a Winder and only having 600 bucks to put into the rifle.

On the other hand as an action 600 dollars for a nice High Wall is not too bad, Plus the cast off odd parts could be sold perhaps netting 1/4 of the purchase price.

Would you break it down or would you want to buy it as a collectible. Again it's been sold so my question is theroritical.  This forum is the best collection of Single Shot experts around and would be interested in views.

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Green_Frog
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Re: But what about the Ethics of breaking down SSh
Reply #1 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 10:19am
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boats,

    What I meant by my response was that you could "have your cake and eat it too" by simply using the parts you need while retaining the other parts to return the rifle to original configuration.  In point of fact, there are about as many of those high-wall muskets out there as available sporters, so the question sort of morphs into one of doing ANYthing with an original rifle.  Undecided

    Ultimately, if it is your rifle, you can do what you want with it and ethics are not a real issue...but from a collector's standpoint we can't help but want to both preserve and conserve the items we collect with regard to historic as well as financial value.  Wink  There is no single answer and it is sort of a moving target anyway.  The value of a common musket has risen significantly, but mostly for very well preserved pieces.   Smiley

    Meanwhile, the value of a complete, original high-wall action has skyrocketted,  Shocked so we balance one against the other.  As more of the common models disappear, each remaining example becomes a little more valuable, but then again, the price of the parts continues to rise as well.   Cool You pays your money and you does what works for you and makes you happy, I personally just try to think about it on the long term, both for my future investment value and for the convenience of my heirs.   Huh

Do I have the waters sufficiently muddy yet?  Cheesy

Froggie
  
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Re: But what about the Ethics of breaking down SSh
Reply #2 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 12:30pm
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Froggy good comments worth considering.  Tar Baby you are right and no doubt this particular High Wall Winder will get broken for parts. I would add Real Estate agents to your list though.

I was wondering about our ethics as ASSRA members, not traders. However it probably makes no sense to pass hoping to preserve the rifle as is and let it go to someone who is just going to strip it for parts. And you can't buy everything up just to preserve it.

In this particular case I think it was ruined by the import markings making it fair game for a project rifle. Had it been untouched I think it would have been untouchable, for me anyway.

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Tar_Baby
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Re: But what about the Ethics of breaking down SSh
Reply #3 - Nov 23rd, 2007 at 7:28pm
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ethics i'm just here to help varmitize the rest thats left. the problem is what is real, all you need is the ser no xxxx and you are ib the game. check wtth KEN on how many numbers he has been ask to engrave to fit a rifle.
  
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xxgrampa
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Re: But what about the Ethics of breaking down SSh
Reply #4 - Nov 24th, 2007 at 2:32am
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i'm still having many guilt feelings haunting me from from the 50's. when we destroyrd a lot of walls to make 219 wasps and zippers.

couldn't wait to throw  those hook butt stocks away and put of a nice roll over comb bishop.

will never again deface a wall,, never, nope never.. 

aarrahge, i need whisky.. but i don't drink.. help, the dreams are coming back...



  
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Kurt_701
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Re: But what about the Ethics of breaking down SSh
Reply #5 - Nov 24th, 2007 at 7:39am
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I am more a shooter than a collector. I think to that end you may replace a barrel, reline it, add a stock to suit you. I retain those old parts and will pass them along, when I sell the the gun. I fear and dislike the ideal of using old parts to make "original rifles". Once something has been changed, the gun is no longer original, and the price value should reflect that. It becomes a custom gun.  A restored gun should not have the same value as a mint original.  It is getting more difficult, to decipher  original rifles. Honesty is becoming the first casualty, in dealing with antique guns.
  

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Green_Frog
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Re: But what about the Ethics of breaking down SSh
Reply #6 - Nov 24th, 2007 at 11:02am
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A strange aspect of our pastime is the absolute demand for originality.  In almost any other field, including fine art, the careful and proper restoration of a damaged piece is considered acceptable.  I have never understood why the same is not true of firearms.  To me, if a screw is ruined, a lever is bent, or whatever, replacing them with the correct  and original spec part adds to the overall quality of the piece.  I hate seeing a mismatched or damaged part on an otherwise nice piece.   Sad

Also, if a given piece is a rusty relic, unless it has specific historic interest (like brought up from the USS Maine, or some such) then restoration is a historical and ethical thing to do...not to mislead but to conserve.  Upgrades of poor condition plain pieces to higher grade as well as nicer condition should be done in a non-misleading way as well, but to me seems perfectly acceptable.  Call me a barbarian, but that's my story and I'm sticking to it.   Cool

Froggie

PS  On at least two occasions I have taken incomplete or already-"customized" rifles and returned them, using original take-off parts from various sources, to original configuration.  Was this a "bad thing?"   Undecided
  
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Tar_Baby
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Re: But what about the Ethics of breaking down SSh
Reply #7 - Nov 24th, 2007 at 12:04pm
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what about pope--you know the one that took hws apart Grin
  
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Re: But what about the Ethics of breaking down SSh
Reply #8 - Nov 24th, 2007 at 12:24pm
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That was actually a rifle marked "Harlow Pope," an alias used by Harlow Parkenfarker in his early years before his own name became so well known and respected.  Grin Cheesy Grin Cheesy Grin
  
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Tar_Baby
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Re: But what about the Ethics of breaking down SSh
Reply #9 - Nov 24th, 2007 at 12:32pm
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i have at least one his works-regards,ben
  
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xxgrampa
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Re: But what about the Ethics of breaking down SSh
Reply #10 - Nov 24th, 2007 at 6:14pm
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ben,

and i have the other one.

tt.g
  
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Re: But what about the Ethics of breaking down SSh
Reply #11 - Nov 24th, 2007 at 7:41pm
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There is no right or wrong answer to the original question. It really depends whether one is a shooter or collector. To me it seems overkill to dismantle a rifle just because of import marks. The exportation of the rifle and subsequent importation is part of its history. What if 25 years from now new Winchester records are discovered that show exactly who/where this rifle went, and it could have a very interesting story to tell. 

**Maybe**, if **legally* possible, for the private owner to remove the import markings (or move them to the bottom of the barrel) and reblue/touch up the barrel, I could **maybe* see doing that. 

I have a Ballard Pacific in 45-100 where a former owner etched his name on the bottom of the barrel with an electric pencil (I would guess circa 1950's). Fortunately it's partly hidden by the cleaning rod, but it's still there. Should I break this rifle down for parts because of this? 

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Re: But what about the Ethics of breaking down SSh
Reply #12 - Nov 25th, 2007 at 9:14am
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As I understand the rules (and could well be wrong) the rifle did not have to be import marked. As a qualified curio or relic it could have been brought into the country mark free.  However it was imported in a lot of target rifles bought from Canada and was marked at the same time as the modern rifles Too much trouble for the importer to go through the paperwork for one rifle out of the lot. He did mark the barrel not the receiver which shows he knows what will sell.

I think it's ruined from a collectors point of view.  Not to mention it's less than a pristine example. Whatever, money rules and the owner will do what he wants.  The dealer told me it's on the way to the breakers.

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Re: But what about the Ethics of breaking down SSh
Reply #13 - Nov 25th, 2007 at 8:28pm
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I think it depends on the condition and desireability of the piece. 
If it's already been monkeyed with, then anything goes for me. If it's all original, and in poor or very poor condition, then I wouldn't mind restoring it, or using it for parts.
As for those guns that were "customized" in the 1950's, I think some are just plain ugly, while others have collectable interest for what they re, providing they were expertly done. I'd hesitate to tear a beautifully assembled 1950's custom sporter apart, even to remake it to it's original configuration. They are a part of singeshot rifle history now.
  
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