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Ziggy
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Breach Seating
Oct 5th, 2007 at 5:59pm
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I am new to all this. What is Breach Seating.
Thanks
  
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Paul_F.
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Re: Breach Seating
Reply #1 - Oct 5th, 2007 at 7:02pm
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Breech seating (notice, two "e"s ) is loading a cartridge rifle kinda like loading an artillery piece..
First you stuff the bullet into the chamber.
Then you put in a cartridge case with powder and primer in it.
Then you shoot it.

I'm sure those that shoot breech seated ammo can elaborate some more...
I haven't tried it yet. 


Paul F.
  
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Ziggy
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Re: Breach Seating
Reply #2 - Oct 5th, 2007 at 7:18pm
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Thank you. Two "e"s. Spelling never has been one of my better attributes
  
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westerner
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Re: Breach Seating
Reply #3 - Oct 7th, 2007 at 7:37pm
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Ziggy,  Breech seating is when you use a plugged case ar a breech seating tool to push a lead bullet into the rifling ahead of the chamber. Then the loaded case is inserted and fire'd.  The base of the bullet can be almost touching the case mouth or can be as far ahead as half an inch or more depending on the lead in.  This is the most accurate way to shoot a lead bullet out of a schutzen rifle.   Hope this help's. 
 
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Ziggy
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Re: Breach Seating
Reply #4 - Oct 7th, 2007 at 8:42pm
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Thanks for the explanation. I was wondering how large the gap could be. What material do you use to plug the case?
  
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boats
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Re: Breach Seating
Reply #5 - Oct 7th, 2007 at 9:13pm
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Ziggy they are open questions.

On plugging if you mean the plug in the case used to seat the bullet brass is the most common material. However hard wood works fine too as would some harder metal. Most people like something soft so the chamber cannot be scratched.  You can also seat with a push type tool as well as a lever operated mechanical seater 

If you mean by plug the wad that some people use to hold the powder in place when breech seating it's a much discussed and debated topic.  Two schools here no wad at all, or wad, then what the wad is made of, then how it's positioned over the powder.

How much space between cartridge case and bullet ?  I let the bullet fit in the rifles leade tell me, It needs to be pushed into the rifling firmly but not so firm as to damage the bullet.  The cartridge case follows the bullet and space can vary considerably one rifle/bullet combination to another. Many seaters are adjustable and people will changed spaces looking for the best combination.

Boats
  
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stbryson
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Re: Breach Seating
Reply #6 - Oct 14th, 2007 at 11:01pm
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Do you have to have a barrel with a tapered throat in order to breech seat?  I ask because I have a Stevens 44-49 in .25-21 Stevens that I would like to shoot, but I don't want to used fixed ammunition.  Would I have to go the route of getting a custom bullet mold made (I am not going to alter the barrel)?

Thank you, and take care,

Steve Bryson
  

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boats
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Re: Breach Seating
Reply #7 - Oct 16th, 2007 at 6:45am
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It depends.  If starting fresh most people will have the leade cut for breech seating.  It's probably impossible to tell visually the barrel is different than any other chamber. It's just a little taper to the leade.

Bullets are another matter and it's not likely a standard mold will throw something than slips into the rifling well.  I would try some bullets from a proven .25 mold and see how they work. the 25's are less common but someone on this board will probably send you a couple dozen to try. If they work you could either buy the same mold or go for a custom.

I would bet you can get the rifle to shoot without alteration,

Boats
  
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creedmoormatch
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Re: ---Breech--- Seating
Reply #8 - Oct 16th, 2007 at 3:49pm
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I appreciate your discussion on breech seating, but would like further information regarding the subject of chamber pressures.  My question deals with the use of blackpowder VS. smokeless powder when breech seating.  As an ole time muzzleloader, I was always told to avoid any and all air gaps in the barrel breech between the top of the powder column and the base of the bullet.  (Thus, ALWAYS seat the M.L. bullet down on top of the B.P. charge).  So, is it acceptable to breech seat a bullet up into the rifling when the case is charged with black powder and there is a resulting air space between the two?  Secondly, is there a risk of "ringing" the chamber by high pressures as a result of breech seating with either B.P. or smokeless?  I want to be safe, as well as accurate> Smiley
  
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boats
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Re: Breach Seating
Reply #9 - Oct 16th, 2007 at 4:57pm
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We went round and round on the air space when breech seating issue last year or so.  Everybody who breech seats Schuetzen rifles with Black powder leaves air space between the bullet and wad.

It's a often told tale that it's dangerous.  Probably true when the firearm is an old musket or shotgun. Not relivent to modern steel reproduction Black Powder cartridge actions.

The most dangerous thing when breech seating any of our Schuetzen rifles is double charging, Impossable with a case full of Black powder, has happend more than once with double charges of smokeless.

Ringing is another hotly debated topic.  Personaly I don't use any sort of wad at all if I don't have to.  It just introduces another variable in the mix. When loading a full case of Black I have to put a wad over the powder to keep it from spilling when inserting the case.   Everybody who breech seats black has to do the same thing.   

I have never seen a barrel rung with black, I have heard of rung barrels using small charges of fast smokeless powder and some sort of sticky wad materal. Dacron etc.  There is no other option I know of to load black B/Seated, wads are the only way.

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creedmoormatch
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Re: Breach Seating
Reply #10 - Oct 18th, 2007 at 1:37pm
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[quote author=boats link=1191621553/0#9 date=1192568248]We 
It's a often told tale that it's dangerous.  Probably true when the firearm is an old musket or shotgun. Not relivent to modern steel reproduction Black Powder cartridge actions.

Hi Boats.....My concern is not about "modern steel reproduction B.P. cartridge actions", ( I assume you are referring to Italian made repros. )but rather a Remington R.B. Model No. 1 of the early black powder military vintage.  Can you comment further on the issue of an air gap when breech seating in such an original 19th Century action?  Thanks much !!
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Breach Seating
Reply #11 - Oct 18th, 2007 at 1:48pm
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FWIW, it's not the air gap by itself causing problems - unless you have way more air than powder... - IMO, it is an urban myth that black won't allow any air gap between bullet and powder:  Been there, done that, with original rifles.  What you don't want to do is use small charges of fast-burning powder in big cases (like half a case of FFFg in a 577/450), that is asking for trouble...
And this was with fixed ammo, BTW, but the situation would be identical to breechseating - air is air.

  
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boats
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Re: Breach Seating
Reply #12 - Oct 18th, 2007 at 7:43pm
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I think MBelgian is right but cannot say for sure.  Right now the only old BPC rifle I own is a Trapdoor and I don't breach seat it.  Having owned a number of Trapdoors and shot them a lot I don't think they have more potential breech seating than with fixed.  The advantages are probably going to be masked by the accuracy level the rifle is capable of.  My Trapdoor is a 3 moa rife at best and a good one at that. If original rolling blocks are better than 3 moa I would be surprised. I am talking about typical groups,long runs 10 shots.  Not the odd 3 shot group.

I have no qualms at all about loading a CPA with a modern Steel Douglas barrel in 38/55 B/S allowing air space between the wad on top of black and the bullet.  It went from a 2 moa BPC fixed load rifle to a less than 2 moa Schuetzen when I switched over to B/s  Better but still only a half MOA or so. That is about the range you could expect  1 moa better would be a very big  jump.

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40_Rod
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Re: Breach Seating
Reply #13 - Oct 19th, 2007 at 9:02am
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A nominal 1/16 inch space between the bullet and case has been used since Will Hayes brought the first breech/muzzleloading rifle to a match.
I have never seen an old load data that did not call for at least a 1/16 gap for breech seating. 

40 Rod
  
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Re: Breach Seating
Reply #14 - Oct 19th, 2007 at 10:34am
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Creedmoor

Thinking about old muskets there is not a lot of barrel strength difference between a .58 cal Minne Ball rifle and some of the early rolling blocks and trapdoors  Lots of the trapdoors used musket parts and I think lined barrels.  Perhaps Rolling blocks too.  I would not shoot my muzzle loaded musket with air space and don't think I would shoot a trapdoor or rolling block with any either.  May be OK but may not.

Wolf's book on original BP cartridges is probably the best source for 45/70 old data and I don't recall any of his loads having air space. It's not in front of me now however, someone else may be able to have a look.

Breech seating is a development of later stronger fine target rifles and that's what I would confine the method too.

Boats

  
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