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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Merits of the .25's (Read 9463 times)
Bruce P
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Merits of the .25's
Jun 24th, 2007 at 5:46pm
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From the ranks of the experienced......

I'm curious of the merits of the various .25's.

Namely the .25WCF, .25-21 Stevens, .25-20 SS.

Are all potentially equal in accuracy? Is any one of these better?

Of the three the .25WCF would seem to be the most economical to load for as components are plentiful and cheap.

I'd appreciate some opinions on this.

Reagrds, Bruce
  
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ACGould
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Re: Merits of the .25's
Reply #1 - Jun 24th, 2007 at 8:03pm
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I shoot all three and , in addition, 25-35 and 25-25.  All things being equal (proper bullet, well developed load, etc.) they will all shoot equally well.  If you are looking to build a .25 for competition at 200 yards, I would strongly suggest a 1/10" twist barrel and a tapered or two diameter breech-seating bullet of at least 115 grains.  My personal favorite is the 25-21.  With the exception of really windy days, my lifetime scores with the 25's aren't far behind my scores with the 32-40's. If you are breech-seating,  a box of Bertram or Rocky Mt. cases should last a lifetime.  If you prefer to shoot fixed ammo, then the 25-20 WCF is the winner because of the price and availablity of good brass.
Good luck, 
Leon
  
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Green_Frog
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Re: Merits of the .25's
Reply #2 - Jun 24th, 2007 at 8:05pm
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...and don't forget the classic, only slightly less aged .25-35 which can take a heavier bullet and push it safely at a somewhat higher speed to make it a little less wind sensitive or so I've been told.  I've only had limited experience with the -35 and  the SS and WCF versions of the -20, so I'm waiting with bated breath for replies from the experienced.   Wink

Froggie
  
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Bent_Ramrod
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Re: Merits of the .25's
Reply #3 - Jun 24th, 2007 at 8:35pm
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Bruce,

I have examples of all three.  Although none (well, maybe one) are target-grade barrels, and I'm not a competitive target-grade shot, here's my experience for what it's worth.

Of course, the .25-20 repeater is easier to find components for, and that's a big advantage for some.  It's plenty accurate for small-game and short-range varmint shooting or plinking.  I can typically get 2-1/2" groups at 100 yards with it with iron sights and cast bullets.  I found it took some doing to get groups with reloads as consistent as those with the lead-bullet factory ammunition I tried, although eventually I was able to do so.

The .25-20 SS seems (to me, at least) to be easier to load to greater accuracy with canister powders than the repeater version.  I can get under 2" at 100 yards with this caliber, if I'm doing well.  Also people like Allyn Tedmon and others in the 1930's were able to load the .25-20SS up till it was a sort of large version of the .22 Hornet, in strong rifles, while everybody agreed that the more extreme bottleneck of the Repeater version raised pressures too quickly for such loadings.  I've tried loads along this line with my Win SS in .25-20 SS (with bushed firing pin) and found that the groups I was getting, except with the obsolete Winchester 60-gr HP bullet, weren't accurate enough to take advantage of the enhanced (2600 ft/sec range) velocity.  I'm usually doing good to get 3" groups at 100 yards with the modern Hornady 60 gr, although the Win 60 might cut a half-inch off that.  Still, the potential is there.  The old guys used the Win 60 grain exclusively, which was all they had.  I look for boxes of that bullet at every gun show I attend, generally to no avail.

The old experimenters all held the .25-21 to be the most accurate of the three, but the black-powder propellant they mostly used might have influenced this judgement quite a bit.  Supposedly you could get 3/4" groups at 75 yards with this shell, loaded with black powder.  Townsend Whelen had a Win SS in .25-20 SS bushed and rechambered to .25-21 and wrote that he got much more accuracy out of it afterward.  My own experiments with this caliber are kind of inconclusive.  Sometimes it shows more accuracy than the other calibers, then the next weekend it doesn't.  This may be due to smokeless powder, and may have a lot to do with the Bertram cases I use, which seem to vary quite a bit in length and even in diameter, not to say rim size.

I have three rifles in .25-20 SS, one Win Low-Wall, and one barrel for a Stevens 44-1/2 and another for a Stevens 47/44-1/2.  My .25-21  and one .25-20 Repeater are barrels for the Stevens 44-1/2.  I also have a set-back and rechambered Stevens 44 in .25-20 Repeater.  (I have a Marlin 27 pump in .25-20R as well, but the bore is pretty bad, so I don't include it in this.)

So I would say if you don't mind the extra expense and hassle, the .25-20 SS offers the most versatility.  If convenience is the most important, the .25-20 Repeater will give you 95% of everything else you want.  If you are a total crank, get the .25-21, experiment every which way and weep whenever one of the Bertram cases splits Cry.
  
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Brent
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Re: Merits of the .25's
Reply #4 - Jun 25th, 2007 at 8:14am
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The one downside to the .25-20 SS is that it does not have enough powder capacity to make a really competitive 200 yds rifle IF you want to shoot blackpowder.  It can throw an 80 gr bullet plenty fast, but if you get a faster twist barrel for a 100 or 115 gr bullet as most seem to use for 200 yd shooting, then it just won't be able to fit enough powder.   

The .25-20 WCF and the .25-21 Stevens are probably the same in that respect.   

My .25-20 is a 14 or 15 twist. With extensive testing, I found that it would not keep bullets heavier than 85 grs going straight at 200 yds.  79 gr bullets are JUST barely capable of making it to the target point on.   

Brent
  
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Jim_Borton
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Re: Merits of the .25's
Reply #5 - Jun 25th, 2007 at 10:02am
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Don`t foeget the .25 Hornet! Brass is creaper then the old rounds. And shoots great. Just fire 22 hornet in your 25 hornet chamber and your don`t with case forming!
  

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Re: Merits of the .25's
Reply #6 - Jun 25th, 2007 at 3:47pm
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I beleive the cartridge cases you mention are probably equal, accuracy wise. Having said that, the thought in the old days was that the .25-21 was the most accurate load with 12 inch twist and 100 grain bullets. At least that is what thegood shooting Peterson was that I saw. But on the other hand it is hard to argue with the .25-20 SS with 12 inch twist and 101 grain bullets on a Ballard that Wayne Veitz used last summer to shoot a 250 and beat out the .32 Miller shorts and other modern cases.

I would think twice about making a .25 Hornet or .256 Win. Mag. since they are not legal in the Quarter Bore Corps Matches, and someday you may want to shoot in these matches.
  
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ole7groove
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Re: Merits of the .25's
Reply #7 - Jun 25th, 2007 at 5:51pm
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Quarter-Bore-
It sure seems pretty off center not allowing 25 Hornet too compete in 1/4bore matches, since many "cast bullet wilcat" cartridges are not banned from anyother ASSRA smokeless matches. Sure would tweek a few folks if 32 Miller Short and its variations were banned for other CF Matches. Frankly, I can't see the advantage the 25 Hornet has over the "approved cartridges", aside for the low cost of brass. But then Ole Harry Pope never shot a 25 Hornet so that makes it right, I guess. None the less the 25 Hornet is legal for the ASSRA CF Matches, who needs 1/4 bore corps.

7~
  
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Re: Merits of the .25's
Reply #8 - Jun 25th, 2007 at 6:09pm
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What Barry said and more!!!!!!! Cool Some of you guys have funny ideas 
Undecided
  

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Bruce P
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Re: Merits of the .25's
Reply #9 - Jun 26th, 2007 at 7:09am
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Thanks all for chiming in. 

I just wish I had deep enough pockets to have them all and find the time to shoot them.

I'd like to see more about how they hold up at 200 yards. 

The heavier bullet makes sense (100 grains+). 

Most of what I have read about seems the poop out after 150 yards.

I enjoy shooting both smokeless and Black.

Bruce
  
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Green_Frog
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Re: Merits of the .25's
Reply #10 - Jun 26th, 2007 at 8:55am
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I have never seen a definitive list (or even a black-and-white definition) of what constitutes a proper and legal caliber for the Quarter Bore Corps competitions.  Does it have to be a factory produced round?  Does it have to have been made during a specified time window?  Does it have to be of American origin?  Does the rifle shooting it have to have been available from the factory in that caliber?   Huh

I ask these not from a casual or disinterested standpoint.  I am seriously thinking about a low-wall in the German single shot caliber that can best be described as a .38 SPL necked down to .25 caliber (metric equiv, of course) and fired breech seated or finger seated in the case.  I would really like to know BEFORE I pursue this further what its status would be.   Undecided

Curious minds want to know, including my Froggie brain!   Cheesy
  
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Quarter_Bore
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Re: Merits of the .25's
Reply #11 - Jun 26th, 2007 at 12:19pm
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Greeny,
The rules are fairly specific. I has to be an american made single shot rifle from the period (1917 or before) and it must be chambered for a .25 caliber cartridge that was used in american made single shots
before that time. Why would you want to make up something oddball anyway? I think the old ones that are legal are odd enough.
This has always been a traditional match.
  
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ole7groove
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Re: Merits of the .25's
Reply #12 - Jun 26th, 2007 at 12:42pm
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Esteemed Pond Dweller-
Thats my point exactly, the "Match Equipment and Scoring Rules" book makes no mention of Quarter Bore at all. However, Section 1.10 "Changes to Match and Equipment Rules" states that changes must me in writing and submitted to the VP who will then send copies to match committee(?). If approved by the committee, if they approve th changes, they are then submitted to the BOD, if they approve then the shall be accepted. The revised changes will be published in the Journal." This the closest mention made to the subject by the "RULE BOOK". Should not the "Rule Book" be changed to refect this? Undecided

My own opinion is that the ASSRA was to promote all aspects of single shot rifle shooting. According to 1/4 Bore the 25's must be 25-20SS or R, 25-21; or 25-25, these are all (except for 25-20R) black powder cartridges, therefore, I think that the 1/4Bore Corps should be limited to BP only. We should try to entice as many shooters as we can not add more restrictions than are neccessary, neither restrictions of choice of powder or cartridge accomplishes this. As I have retired from competetive shooting I have no personal gains to be had by my opinion. I do understand the intent for the 1/4Bore matches, but do not agree with the approach by creating a special 25 class to entice shooters to get out these long neglected rifles and calibers. But there are many weaker actions (like Stevens 44) chambered for the 25BP cartridges that perhaps should not be fired with smokeless powder. Most of the shooters building new 25 calibers are all using 44 1/2 and actions commonly used for the larger calibers. 

7~
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Brent
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Re: Merits of the .25's
Reply #13 - Jun 26th, 2007 at 1:26pm
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If they really wanted to be traditional, they should stipulate 18" twists.  That will cool off the scores a whole lot - AND get back to traditional, as I know of no 10 or 11" twists in historic rifles.  That's something for the modern era.   

Seems nuts to disallow the .25 hornet and then allow barrels shooting 100+ gr bullets under the guise of tradition.

Brent
  
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ole7groove
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Re: Merits of the .25's
Reply #14 - Jun 26th, 2007 at 1:29pm
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Bruce-

You asked how the 25 calibers stack-up to the larger calibers. This year I have begun ballistical testing of the 25 calibers. These tests include obtaining muzzle velocity, 200 yard velocity, time of flight, and pressures all of which (except for the later) are used to determine actual BC of the bullet being tested. 
For example-A 32 caliber 210 grain spitzer bullet will have MV of 1475fs; 200 yard velocity of 1216fs; TOF .442182 seconds, BC = .343.
wind drift at 200 (90degrees to line of flight) = .923 inches per mile per hour.
A 25 caliber 108 grain spitzer bullet will have MV of 1578fs; 200 yd velocity of 1190fs; TOF .448775 seconds; BC = .290; wind drift at 200 1.013 inches per mile per hour. 
Neither the cartridge or twist effect the BC if the bullet is stable during flight. Actually, the 25 and 32 have esentially the same wind drift at 100 yards since the 25 velocity is 1395fs while the 32 is 1327fs. Of course the downrange velocities will vary with temperature and altitude, bullets with different nose forms and weights. My experience has been that at 100 yards the 25 will shoot as well as the 32. At 200yards great care must be paid to wind conditions with the 25. Contrary to what you read about match results, typical 200 yard 32 ten shot groups will be in the order of 1 1/2 inches and the 25 will be 2 1/2 inches if attention is paid to conditions. Aside from the wind, the biggest variable with the 25 caliber is that it is extremely sensitive to powder charge uniformity. The upside of the 25 is it costs about half as much to feed as the 32, and less than a 1/3 recoil. Its really a "hoot to shoot".  Wink

(the data I mention is taken directly from my test equipment, not from software program or corrected to sea level.)

7~

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