Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3  Send TopicPrint
Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) Pope barrels (Read 30033 times)
marlinguy
Ex Member
*****


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Pope barrels
May 29th, 2007 at 6:46pm
Print Post  
I'm looking at a Pope barreled Ballard, and wondering if anyone has decyphered Pope's barrel codes? 
Under the forearm is a #21, and below that a #141. It has another number off from these that I guess might be the number of the barrel. 
I read somewhere that these numbers were a code Pope used to determine the settings of his barrel rifling lathe? Is this close, or am I way off?-Vall
  
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
FITZ
Oldtimer
*****
Offline


REGARDS

Posts: 917
Location: MASSACHUSETTS
Joined: Apr 16th, 2004
Re: Pope barrels
Reply #1 - May 29th, 2007 at 8:08pm
Print Post  
Vall, if the number appears as a true fraction, 21/141 or 21 over 141 in close proximity you are correct. I have seen them stamped in both way's. This is Pope's number for identifying his rifling setup. There have been many interpretations of how to read the numbers. But I am not sure anyone really knows. The other number which should be standing alone is his job or barrel number. Regards, FITZ. Smiley
  

FITZ
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schutzenbob
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Online


Rheinisch-Westfälisc
hen Sprengstoff-Fabriken

Posts: 2063
Location: Nightingale, California
Joined: Oct 24th, 2005
Re: Pope barrels
Reply #2 - May 29th, 2007 at 8:49pm
Print Post  
Vall,

Is that a Stevens-Pope barrel? I have one on a Winchester that's marked like that, what I think it may mean is that the pitch starts at a turn in 21" and increases to 1 in 14" that's my best guess. However having said that, it has to be a very close guess. How does your Pope Ballard shoot?

Bob
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Ex Member
*****


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Re: Pope barrels
Reply #3 - May 30th, 2007 at 6:40pm
Print Post  
Thank you Fitz and Bob! This gun is not in my posession, but rather in a family that is requesting info on it prior to sale. (An offer has already been made!) I was asked to give some insight on it, because of my interest in Ballards, and was quite surprised to see the "HM Pope" name on the top of the barrel. 
It is not a Stevens Pope, but appears to be a Pope barrel that once resided on a Winchester, as the forearm looks like an 1885, and the barrel has been set back (I believe) when it was installed on this Ballard #9 Union Hill. On removing the forearm I saw where the forearm screw once was, and the barrel is 27" long, which seemed an odd length. My guess was they cut the old threads off, rethreaded it, and rechamberd it for the Ballard, then retapped the hole for the forearm.
It also has a Winchester globe front, and Pope tang sight, and buttplate.

Thanks again!-Vall
  
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schutzenbob
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Online


Rheinisch-Westfälisc
hen Sprengstoff-Fabriken

Posts: 2063
Location: Nightingale, California
Joined: Oct 24th, 2005
Re: Pope barrels
Reply #4 - May 31st, 2007 at 11:42pm
Print Post  
I took the forend off of my Pope Ballard to check the numbers, which are very tiny little numbers indeed, using a loop; it’s stamped “18.5/15/1.15” below that, “5/1/13” and below that “H.M.Pope.” I believe that this means that the rifling starts out at the throat with a pitch of 1 turn in 18.5” increasing to a turn in 15.” Now, I don’t  know absolutely that this is correct, but it makes sense. So, I have a Ballard with a Ron Smith barrel which starts at the throat with a pitch of 1 turn in 22” and increases to a turn in 13.5” at the muzzle, so if I wanted to express this in Pope’s numbers, I would stamp under the forend in little tiny numbers “22/13.5” below that I would stamp the date and below that R.K. Smith.

Bob
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schutzenbob
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Online


Rheinisch-Westfälisc
hen Sprengstoff-Fabriken

Posts: 2063
Location: Nightingale, California
Joined: Oct 24th, 2005
Re: Pope barrels
Reply #5 - May 31st, 2007 at 11:45pm
Print Post  
I forgot to add that the Pope rifle and the Ron Smith rifle are both 32-40s.

Bob
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Ex Member
*****


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Re: Pope barrels
Reply #6 - Jun 1st, 2007 at 6:16pm
Print Post  
Thanks for that additional info Bob!-Vall
  
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
ssdave
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 1836
Location: Eastern Oregon
Joined: Apr 16th, 2004
Re: Pope barrels
Reply #7 - Jun 1st, 2007 at 6:43pm
Print Post  
Val,

This information is secondhand, I saved it some time ago.  It seemed plausible at the time.  The link to it is:

Popes secret code was given on this link as follows:

To my knowledge, what you are now going to read has never been published or written: 

« Last Edit: Dec 4th, 2008 at 1:32pm by ssdave »  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schutzenbob
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Online


Rheinisch-Westfälisc
hen Sprengstoff-Fabriken

Posts: 2063
Location: Nightingale, California
Joined: Oct 24th, 2005
Re: Pope barrels
Reply #8 - Jun 1st, 2007 at 7:06pm
Print Post  
Dave,

Thanks! This is just the sort of stuff I love to hear. Years ago an old Mechanic friend built a sine bar rifling machine out of an old lathe and I watched him recut and rerifle an old barrel, at the time he explained to me that he'd need a curved bar to make a gain twist barrel. I'd love to see a picture of Pope's old rifling machine. As you've probably heard, Tom Rowe and Warren Greatbach are publishing a three volume set of books on Harry Pope and his rifles, they may solve some mysterys, and or, create a few more.

Bob
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
marlinguy
Ex Member
*****


Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Re: Pope barrels
Reply #9 - Jun 1st, 2007 at 7:21pm
Print Post  
Dave,
Thanks so much for this great link! This is very good information! 
I went to the Shiloh forum and read the entire post, and Kevin's remarks around this topic were both informative, and sad. It's hard to imagine Harry Pope's family having a bonfire and destroying documents that would mean so much today, and in the future!-Vall
  
(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Schutzenbob
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Online


Rheinisch-Westfälisc
hen Sprengstoff-Fabriken

Posts: 2063
Location: Nightingale, California
Joined: Oct 24th, 2005
Re: Pope barrels
Reply #10 - Jun 2nd, 2007 at 4:19pm
Print Post  
Please indulge me, but the numbers that I find under Harry Pope’s barrels don’t seem to be mysterious at all. On Hal Prucha’s website there is a listing for “Jersey City Pope” which is a 28-30 Pope barrel on a Winchester action. The numbers under the forend are “18/1.24.”

(You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

The normal pitch for a Stevens rifle in 28-30-120 is 1 turn in 14” and in Pope’s catalog he is recommending a 136 grain bullet for his muzzle loading barrel. Now, again it seems to me that what Pope is saying is that his gain twist rifling for 28 starts at the throat with one turn in 18” and increases to a pitch of a turn in 12.4” which seems about right for a 136 grain 28 caliber bullet. Why he would have the decimal point in the wrong place, I can only conjecture.

Bob
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
QuestionableMaynard8130
Frequent Elocutionist
*****
Offline



Posts: 4144
Location: Benton  Harbor MI
Joined: Apr 17th, 2004
Re: Pope barrels
Reply #11 - Jun 2nd, 2007 at 8:19pm
Print Post  
maybe I'm just ignorent, about gain twist barrels, but somthing strikes me as odd.  Shootng a breeachloaded projectile in a gain twist makes a bit of sense as you start out with a slow twist and accelerate the twist rate as the bullet goes down the tube;  although velocities and lead temper would have to be carefully regulated to avoid overdriving the twist and stripping the lead.

however how would it possibly work with false muzzle loading--seems to me you'd be pushing the slug thorugh that changing twist twice and it would already be well buggered up before you ever touched the trigger,  it isn't like you can screw it in with the ramrod and then unscrew it with the powder charge.

OR--were the gain twist barrels a post-false muzzle loading thing?
  

sacred cows make the best burger
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Quarter_Bore
Oldtimer
*****
Offline



Posts: 817
Location:   
Joined: Dec 16th, 2005
Re: Pope barrels
Reply #12 - Jun 2nd, 2007 at 9:34pm
Print Post  
I know what you are saying but the simple fact is that gain twist and choke were commonly used in muzzle loaders before and durring Pope's time. Yes the bullets would get loose as they are pushed down the barrel from the muzzle but the black powder explosion upsets them and makes all well again before they start their flight back up the barrel.
If anything gain twist lost popularity with the increase of popularity of loading the bullets at the breech, but this may be caused by the introduction of smokeless powder at this time.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Jim_Borton
Global Moderator
*****
Offline



Posts: 449
Location: Tipp City
Joined: Apr 9th, 2004
Re: Pope barrels
Reply #13 - Jun 2nd, 2007 at 11:05pm
Print Post  
WinkEVERYONE KNOWS A GAIN TWIST WILL NOT SHOOT FOR ##$%^@& Grin
Undecided
  

Hugs & Kisses
ASSRA life
NRA life
NMLRA life
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Brent
Ex Member


Re: Pope barrels
Reply #14 - Jun 3rd, 2007 at 9:42am
Print Post  
Jim_Borton wrote on Jun 2nd, 2007 at 11:05pm:
WinkEVERYONE KNOWS A GAIN TWIST WILL NOT SHOOT FOR ##$%^@& Grin
Undecided


You haven't shot against Jim Luke I take it.

Brent
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Page Index Toggle Pages: [1] 2 3 
Send TopicPrint