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Don Dixon
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Muzzle Loading Schuetzen rifles
Mar 5th, 2007 at 10:00am
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I have several questions regarding muzzle loading schuetzen rifles that I hope members of the board can help me with:

1. In the black powder era, Pope, and others, made muzzle loading/breach loading rifle barrels.  From the descriptions I have read, the bullets used were larger than bore diameter, in that they had to be started with a false muzzle and shot starter, and scraped fouling out of the barrel as they were loaded.  But, I have never read a detailed description of how much larger: groove diameter, or somewhere between bore and groove diameter?  What alloy did they use for their bullets, since a "hard" lead bullet would be very difficult to start and run down the bore?

2. The muzzle loading/breach loading rifles also used a shot starter.  I've seen European custom made "geschosse setzers" at international muzzle loading matches, where somewhat oversized or paper patched bullets are used in muzzle loading black powder rifles.  These bullet starters contain the bullet in the base, taking the place of a false muzzle in starting the bullet, while supporting the full length of the bullet as it is driven into the rifling.  Does anyone know of a custom maker in the U.S. who makes these?  My German language skills are not up to long range, technical discussions with one of the German gunsmiths.  Plus, like most custom American smiths, they do not list on the Internet and are largely known by word of mouth.

Thanks,
Don  
  
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FITZ
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Re: Muzzle Loading Schuetzen rifles
Reply #1 - Mar 5th, 2007 at 5:25pm
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Don, you are right about alloy. You want to use alloy 25/1 or softer. I prefer 30/1. The first time I tried to muzzle load it was with some Bullets made up with linotype and pure lead, I have no idea how hard. But the first time I tried to drive a bullet thru the false muzzle I went into shock. Hurts when you give a bullet starter a whack and the bullet just barely goes into the false muzzle. I cast some 30/1 alloy bullets and all went well. Now as to size, my Pope slugs at .380 to .381 depending on where you are in the barrel. The original mold that came with the outfit casts .382 so it is groove diameter or a little bigger at the base, I have 32-40 pope molds that cast .326 to .327 at the very rear band. They shoot super breach seated with smokeless, have not tried them muzzle loaded. The scrapes the barrel clean theory is real and it does work. I have shot my 38-55 many times with black both straight and duplex loaded and after you have pushed a bullet all the way down to the chamber if you give it a little snap at the end it will fall out thru the throat and the bore will be claen and bright and shiny. This also by the way leaves a little film of clean bullet lube in the barrel in the process. 
Now as to the process. I have done this quite a bit.  I have shot a couple of 100 and 50 shot matches and doubt I will ever do it again. maybe a ten shot match where straight black is the rule. I found that my rifle shot super muzzle loaded. BUT! it is a lot of work. let me describe the routine.
First you have to shoot a fouler just to limber up the barrel and the lube in the barrel.
then you stand the rifle up, wipe the muzzle clean, mount the false muzzle. start a bullet into the bullet starter, mount the bullet starter carefully onto the false muzzle and drive the bullet into the barrel. It goes down about 3 inches. then you remove the bullet starter, and then using the seating rod thru the false muzzle seat the bullet carefully down to the chamber/throat. now remove the seating rod and false muzzle and park them securely. now you can bring the rifle up to the horizontal and look into the chamber to see the base of the bullet. Some people have experienced the seating rod "sucking" the bullet back up the bore although I have never experienced this. A shot fired with the bullet some where in the barrel other than at the breech is asking for a "Ring or Donut" in your barrel. You are now ready to load in the case with the powder charge, I use a cork wad in the mouth to keep the powder contained. You may now bring the rifle to battery and aim and fire. Now the whole process starts all over again. By the end of the day you have hoisted this 14 or 15 lb rifle up and down and done all kinds of inbetween work and you are exhausted. NOT FUN!
I shoot now with the same bullet breech seated, mostly with smokeless,
sometimes with black duplex loaded when allowed. and I do much better. That is to mean I do much better. I will say that when I muzzle loaded using either straight black or duplex the rifle shot superbly. All the Pope molds I have had the opportunity to examine and or cast from are tapered, usually from bore size or even slightly smaller at the front to over groove size or even bigger at the base band. With good lube they shoot well in good rifles. I own a couple of original Winchester 85 s in 32-40 and that big base band Pope bullet seats easily in both of them and they do not appear to have ever been rethroated since leaving the factory. Well enough for now. HTH, Regards, FITZ Smiley
  

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Re: Muzzle Loading Schuetzen rifles
Reply #2 - Mar 5th, 2007 at 8:32pm
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Fitz

Good discription.  I always wondered what sets the bullet seating depth. Does the Seating rod have a stop or do you seat the bullet against a pluged case that is removed before the charged case is put into the chamber

Boats

  
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Re: Muzzle Loading Schuetzen rifles
Reply #3 - Mar 6th, 2007 at 4:49pm
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Boats, Pope made the seating rod the correct length for the bullet he supplied with the outfit. It seated the bullet correctly when bottomed on the False Muzzle. On pope Muzzle loading outfits if you look closely at the barrel down near the chamber you will find a very fine scribed line. All I have seen are on the right hand side of the barrel. This line indicates the length of the loading rod to seat the Bullet correctly. Pope cut it pretty close. In the Muzzle loading outfits I have experienced the bullet is on the verge of falling out of the throat.If you seat it too briskly with the rod it will fall out. This now requires the shooting of another fouler as Muzzle loading two bullets will change the conditions and the Rifle will not throw the shot to the same zero. I have experienced this and know it to be true. Also when starting the bullet thru the False Muzzle, the action should be clean and done in one stroke. Every time you hit the bullet it upsets some more and again will not shoot to zero. I feel that all of these issues are the reason the shooting fraternity back then embraced the smokeless powder. It shot clean and did not require all of this exhausting work. Another issue overlooked is the fact that many of the great Targets shot back then were all day affairs. Shooter's did not take to the line and shoot a full record target in 30 or 45 minutes as we do now. The famous target shot by Rowland took two day's by his account and has been said by some to have taken three day's. If you want to see how the shooting was done back then you need to read "How I Became a Crack Shot" by Milton Farrow and read his description of the shooting routine at the Creedmore matches. Well, enough for now. Regards, FITZ.
  

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Re: Muzzle Loading Schuetzen rifles
Reply #4 - Mar 6th, 2007 at 9:58pm
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Thanks a lot Fitz I always wondered exactly how the set up worked.

Boats
  
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longcaribiner
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Re: Muzzle Loading Schuetzen rifles
Reply #5 - Jun 22nd, 2007 at 1:23pm
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I once ended up in Alexandria VA, with a few hours to kill.  I wandered into the US Patent office and flipped through old firearms patents from the early 1800's.   There was a patent drawing for a false muzzle.  As I recall, it was from 1811.      Since I was only looking in the drawer from 1800 to 1825, it was definitely from that time period.
  
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Re: Muzzle Loading Schuetzen rifles
Reply #6 - Jun 22nd, 2007 at 7:51pm
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Fitz,
Great description, and I agree with all. 

Boats,
One point that is not often made is the fact that the Pope bullets have about .005 taper in the very rearmost band. Only the very rearmost part of the back band is groove diameter(or a little over as Fitz says) The next band then goes to  about .002 over bore diameter and up near the nose the bands go  under bore diameter by a couple thou. This made it easier to shove the bullet down the barrel. If very much of the bullet was groove diameter it would be impossible to ram it down a dirty barrel. I hope that helps.
  
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matt_carter
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Re: Muzzle Loading Schuetzen rifles
Reply #7 - Jun 24th, 2007 at 8:45am
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Fitz,
Thanks for the description.
I have a couple of questions if you don't mind.

1. When shooting the muzzle loaded bullet with black powder in the 38-55 cartridge where you using regular brass or were you using "everlasting" thick walled cases?

2. If you were using normal "thin" walled cases did you experince any case stretching or seperations?
I understand in the 32-40 with breech seated bullets and straight black powder some folks have had cases stretch and or seperate.

3. With black powder did you use the same case for each shot or did you have your 100 cases already charged?

Thanks Matt
  
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