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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) H/W and L/W screw diameters and pitches (Read 7039 times)
is0086s
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Bob Ryan

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H/W and L/W screw diameters and pitches
Apr 5th, 2006 at 10:45pm
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Does anyone know if the tang screws on high and low walls which are supposed to be 12-28s are undersize in diameter or off pitch? I ask because the 12-28 hole in the lower tang for the tang bolt won't accept a modern 12-28 bolt. I know the supposed 10-36s that hold the lower tang in are undersize and off pitch. Is this a general condition? I am putting a block between the upper and lower tangs to use with a stock bolt. Lest there be distress on the forum I'm working on a beater to get it into shooting condition.
  

Bob Ryan
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marlinguy
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Ballards may be weaker,
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Re: H/W and L/W screw diameters and pitches
Reply #1 - Apr 5th, 2006 at 11:16pm
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Drop me an email and I'll give you Ken Moss' contact at Cedar Creek Screw. He can answer all your Winchester screw questions.
Vall
marlinguy@juno.com
  
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JDSteele
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Re: H/W and L/W screw diameters and pitches
Reply #2 - Apr 6th, 2006 at 9:58pm
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One of the Winchester books mentions that several of the original screw sizes were slightly off the modern spec, and I have found that to be true. The closest modern equivalents are 6-48, 3/16-36 and 12-28, but the original holes usually will be found to be very tight on the modern standard screws. On a custom rifle or beater I frequently run a modern tap into the old holes, because some of the poorer-quality replacement screws will be found to have the modern threads.

Please be advised that an original case-hardened threaded hole will not willingly accept a modern tap. You must either use original-spec screws or else anneal the hole before retapping. If it starts squeaking don't try to force it.
Good luck, Joe
  
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Bent_Ramrod
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Re: H/W and L/W screw diameters and pitches
Reply #3 - Apr 7th, 2006 at 2:50am
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is0086s,

The ones I measured for replacements are 0.206"-0.208" diameter in the threaded part, 28 TPI for the screw that binds the tangs together.  The screw tapers out after the threaded part up to to approximately 0.229" just below the head.

The screws that hold the tang in place on the frame are 0.180"-0.186" diameter X 36 TPI.  This screw also holds the extractor spring in rimfire Low Walls.

Bastard threads and sizes are the rule rather than the exception in the gun line.  The toolmakers didn't care what sizes they had to set up for, and the factory generally preferred to keep the customers coming to them for replacements.  Not just the revenue for spare parts; keeping inventive customers from replacing critical pins and screws with hardware store stuff kept a lot of the liability worries away.

I never felt I could afford a Pope rifle, but the first thing I got when I decided to get into this single-shot hobby was an Atlas screw-cutting lathe Smiley.
  
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Dale53
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Re: H/W and L/W screw diameters and pitches
Reply #4 - Apr 7th, 2006 at 2:48pm
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I had a friend that HATED odd ball screws. He was inclined to drill and tap EVERYTHING to 10x28 with the thought that if he was in the boon docks and stripped a screw he could just buy a screw. It is sacrilegious to a collector to even think of something like this but to a pragmatist it makes absolute sense. 

I really dislike oddball screw sizes, also, but just "grin and bear it" and go thru the sometimes ridiculous efforts needed to replace a screw with the correct one (swearing as I go... Roll Eyes. One I particularly like is the tang screw size for Stevens ( who in the heck thought up a 4x40 screw size as being suitable?).

It makes about as much sense as modern parking lot layout.

Dale53
  
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leadball
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Re: H/W and L/W screw diameters and pitches
Reply #5 - Apr 7th, 2006 at 5:52pm
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dale53;
          old buddy-the stevens tang screw is 5/40 and even more ridiculous than 4/40.  I agree with your friend about tapping the screw holes in these old rifles with standard sizes but then, there is the collector to consider.   leadball
  
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Dale53
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Re: H/W and L/W screw diameters and pitches
Reply #6 - Apr 7th, 2006 at 6:10pm
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Leadball;
Thanks for the correction (I was dithering between 5/40 and 4/40 but as usual, the wrong decision was made Grin).

However, 5/40 is a dandy screw size to use when drilling your mould handles on new moulds (every brand that I have had sooner or later come loose). Drilling them right thru the ferrule and handle solves that little problem. Others use various glues for the same problem. I have a loose handle now and will try high temp silicone that someone suggested. It'll be easier but we'll see if it equals the screw method in longevity.

Dale53
  
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40_Rod
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Re: H/W and L/W screw diameters and pitches
Reply #7 - Apr 8th, 2006 at 8:01am
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Dale

try Acura Glass I have glassed all my loose handles this way and have never had one come loose again.

40 Rod
  
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leadball
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Re: H/W and L/W screw diameters and pitches
Reply #8 - Apr 8th, 2006 at 2:15pm
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40rod;
         I use accu-glas also-seems to work fine- I drill a 3/16 hole about 3 inches back from the ferrel to allow glas and air to escape --have not had one loosen yet.  leadball
  
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FITZ
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Re: H/W and L/W screw diameters and pitches
Reply #9 - Apr 9th, 2006 at 9:35pm
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is0086s, in John Campbells Winchester book he shows some not very clear copies of Winchester manufacturing prints for the side tang screws. They are supposed to be .185 x 35 1/2 pitch. This was an eye opener for me as I had been for years making them as 10 x 36 screws and was never happy with the fit. Have taken the time to look at every lathe I have access to and none will cut 35 1/2 pitch thread. Brownells suposedly carries a 10 x36 taps and dies and I suppose you could squeeze the die down and by turning the screw body to .185 come out with a near acceptable fit. Ihave no memory of the tang thru screw size but suspect that this too may be a near fit but not quite right to our standard screws. These screws are not an accident of a toolmaker. Winchester was one of the leading firms of Manufacturing Engineeringin their day. They were also a old time New England savvy merchandising 
company and I am sure the reason for these off standard screw sizes was a financial one to guarantee sales of replacement parts.. Regards, FITZ.
  

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Bent_Ramrod
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Re: H/W and L/W screw diameters and pitches
Reply #10 - Apr 10th, 2006 at 1:11am
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Well, a 35-1/2 pitch threaded hole with a 36-pitch screw would only start getting sticky after 25-30 turns or so.  You only have to turn in the tang screws 3 or 4 turns if I recall.  People who rebarreled Japanese rifles had to approximate the thread size and generally got a decent fit, even with a 16 TPI barrel in a 16.9 TPI receiver.

I remember my one trial at making a smaller nonstandard screw with a standard pitch.  It was the lever screw on a Ballard and I'd found a die with the right number of threads but too small an opening.  No problem, sez I to myself; that's what that screw that bears on the cutout place on the die is for.  I turned it in real  tight, put it on the screw blank (painfully cut and polished by hand on a Unimat lathe) and started threading.  About 3/4 of the way through the process, there was a loud "PINGGG!!!" and the two pieces of the die launched out of the die stock to opposite ends of the garage.  I could see that my costs for nonstandard and ruined taps and dies could get pretty high pretty quickly.

I'll tap a ruined hole with a standard tap if it comes to that, but just grit my teeth and thread out to the original specs if that's what I'm missing.
  
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