John_C;
I have both a Browning BPCR in 40/65 and a Browning Creedmoor in 45/90. These rifles have Badger barrels, are chambered correctly and the accuracy is exemplary (40/65 has been shot to 600 yards in competition and the Creedmoor has been shot to 1000 yards). I could not ask for more in these two rifles.

However, my Winchester low-wall in .22 rimfire has been mixed in quality. The chamber was and has been a disappointment as well as the barrel. It will shoot like a match rifle for about thirty shots. If it is not cleaned at that point, I get wild shooting. It has a Miroku barrel. 

I have no personal experience with the other centerfire rifles of Browning and Winchester. The actions are fine. They are not the same as the original 1885 but the new action is VERY strong and it is comparitively easy to get a clean 2.0-2.5 lb trigger pull on these rifles with the "McGee Trigger Fix" (I'll send a copy of that article upon request). 

Dale53

I had the Browning in 30-30 and it was a good shooter. I had the McGee trigger fix installed and it then had a decent trigger pull. Like others said, it is NOT the Winchester High Wall design, rather than someones poor attempt to update the design. If you envision taking one of these apart for a complete cleaning, FORGET IT. Thats why gunsmiths charge extra for getting into these beasts. The Low Wall .22 I had was a decent shooter, sounds like a luck of the draw to me.

I am not sure who you were refering to but I take it my comments were one of the two in question. I hate to have a gun, any gun, that I am not able to FULLY disassemble and reassemble for cleaning from time to time. I do not subscribe to the "hose" the action out with some spray cleaner and thats good enough theory. If you do, more power to you. It's just not my style. Anyway, I was sufficiently warned not to try to take these guns apart by those I consider very talented people. Anyway, the only way to clean the action was to remove the wood and scopes and hose the action clean. The barrels were very easy to keep clean so not an issue there. I know several who shoot only black powder, which we all know is corrosive, who report no ill effects on the internals of the action. Again, if I cannot take it down, off it goes!

Dale, the factory disassembly instructions do sorta "gloss over" a few key points, don't they?    I still remember one of my Brownings "self-disassembling" all over my workshop...luckily I found all the parts... Somewhere, I have a copy of some real useful re-assembly tips, from Lee Shaver or someone...If I can find them I'll post them later.

On a similar note, this gentleman has developed a tool to assist in dis/re-assembly.  A friend of mine with a large assortment of Brownings got one, and raved about how well it works.  Contact:

John Stepp 
26687 Dersch Rd. 
Shingletown, CA 96088 
(530) 365-7036

Greg

PS...for those interested, I posted a copy of the Browning factory instructions, and the Lee Shaver version under the "Gunsmithing" section, as they're quite large.

Good morning, Board;

I have two points to add to this discussion:

(1) When the instructions say to pull the trigger to release tension on the hammer springs, BELIEVE IT.  If you do not do this, you will scatter parts all over the place.  If you DO pay attention to this instruction, it is no big deal.  With tension more or less off the springs, slide the block and trigger housing out as a unit.

(2) MI-shooter said, "I know several who shoot only black powder, which we all know is corrosive, who report no ill effects on the internals of the action."  I shoot mostly black powder and I argue that it is NOT corrosive.  It got that reputation way back when PRIMERS were corrosive.  BP fouling is hygroscopic.  That is it draws moisture and promotes rust - not corrosion.

It is also very easy to clean up.  If it makes you happy, use soap and water.  Plain water works just as well.  Just do it fairly soon after shooting.  Remember the old thing about never let the sun set on an uncleaned gun??

I'd far rather clean a gun fired with BP than one fired with the flavorless stuff.

Y'all be good.

horsefly

John_C - 

I've got hi and lo wall models.  .22 and 45-70.  Both are fine shooters.  Was not pleased with the factory original sights on the hi wall, and the low wall did not have any "precision" mid or long range sights, so I put a set of Baldwins on both.  They shoot as well as I do.   

The hi wall's trigger pull was fine after a local gunsmith worked it.  Then after a while the hammer would not cock, so it was  back to Mr. Fixit.  I wish I could get a set trigger on it.

The lo wall has been right as rain since day one.

Hope this helps.

My 2 cents worth:  I have one of the Miroku 1885/78 models with the light tapered barrel in 45-70.  I did the McGee tigger fix and it shoots very well.  (HOWEVER it has one of the pre-production Badger barrels that were installed in a few dozen tangless actions in the runup to the BPCR and Creedmoor editions. I cna't speak about the Miroku-Browning slower twist barrels)  I have broken 240 in the Schoyen with it a couple of times at EG with the factory stock breechseating the Lyman 457676 with 5744----so the gun is capable it the load is right and the shooter does his part.
   I bought the 22 that MI-shooter aludes to from him.  It shot well for him and equally well for me. Steve Durren had worked it over and done a Dale53 triggern job on it.  Its loss due to theft was a real heartbreaker for me .  It liked Wolf TM real well and I could get occasional 240-242 in the 200 yard rimfire Schoyen at EG.  Again it did not have a bench rest stock and was real sensitive to shooting technique (and EG's wind conditions) but the gun was in and of itself accurate --like most 22 rf ---with the right ammo.
 I have talked with and read about other shooters who had accuracy issues with the Browning/Miroku/USRA/Winchester lowall 22s.  While any factory rifle can have QC problems especially in bore and chamber conditions I suspect that they will shoot well once the right combination of ammo and technique is found.   They are not built or sold as match rifles, but with the right ammo,  decent trigger job, a wider forend and good bench technique they will probably shoot as good as anything else on the line. In point of fact many Win 85  .22rf shooters insist that there is a desogn weakness in the original extractor firingpin relationship that creates irregular ignition.  The modern Browning redesign does away with this problem, so given equal barrels/ammo/triggers etc etc the new browning MIGHT be MORE acurate--my speculation

The Browning/Miroku/USRA/Winchester iterations of the '85 is very modified from the original. The trigger especailly is modified and a real problem area.  3 or 4 years back the Journal had an article about the Browning trigger system and it's development.  Dale's trigger fix will give a simple clean safe pull but it will not be like a set of set triggers. 
THese rifles are not good do it yourself projects for the average gun tinkerer, however if you are careful and follow the instructions that have been posted in the gunsmith section and elsewhere it can be done.  However as Dale pointed out they do very well with nothing but an occasional flushing so total disasembly is not a big requirement. I have been shooting the 45-70 for 5 or 6 years now with both BP and smokeless and have not had to tear it apart.  Usually I have a near compulsive need to disassemble any gun I get to see what makes it tick and to deburr polish and hone any irregularity I can feel.  I resisted the urge with both Brownings.
A final word of caution though.  Stock removal before flushing is reccommended unless you want to do a complete refinish since the solvents and rinses can damage the stock finish.  In addition the chemicals in some of the more effective flush/rinse mixes can be corrosive and dangerous unless handled properly and in the right sequences.

IN spite of their quirks I really like the rifles --- in fact I'd probably give up my left and best one to get one of the Lowalls in the .260 Remington chambering