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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Scope mounts on Pope barrel ? (Read 6579 times)
CRK
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Scope mounts on Pope barrel ?
Jan 13th, 2006 at 4:19pm
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I'm looking for imformation that would allow my to replace what apears to be a scope mount on a Pope rifle. It is a 32-40, ballel #133 on a Win. Hi-Wall. There are two sets of tapped and currently pluged holes on the top flat of the barrel. The back ser are 7/8" center to center and the front set are 9/16" on center. The distance between the front screw of the front set and the front screw of the back set is 7 1/8". There is a bit of wear where the rear mount was.

What would have been the most probable combination of scope and mounts?

Any and all advice will be greatly appreciated.
   Best Regards to all,
     CRK
  
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buchsenmacher
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Re: Scope mounts on Pope barrel ?
Reply #1 - Jan 13th, 2006 at 6:18pm
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You have what appears to be a set of holes for Unertl blocks.
The spacing for the rear block is .860 and the front block spacing is .560 with the blocks 7.2" apart, center to center. 
The best place to obtain scope blocks is from Steve Earle. As for obtaining a Unertl scope, You could try gun shows or Ebay, but hang onto your wallet.

Steve Durren
  

Steven Durren
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CRK
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Re: Scope mounts on Pope barrel ?
Reply #2 - Jan 13th, 2006 at 10:51pm
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Steve,
   Thanks for the good scoop. I'll get my mics and check those dimensions. I've always wanted one of those scopes; what a perfect excuse to by one. " I need it for my Pope rifle".
Thanks again,
   CRK
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Scope mounts on Pope barrel ?
Reply #3 - Jan 13th, 2006 at 11:05pm
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Those measurements will work with any number of target type scope bases and scopes. Lymans, Unertls, Feckers, Litscherts, etc. all accept mounts with similar spacing. I have an old Stevens Schuetzen Jr. with Stevens scope, and the same spacing between mounts, and hole spacing.
Probably find that the higher the scope magnification, they usually spaced the mounts a little farther apart. Most of the higher power scopes used a 8.5"-9" spacing, while the 7.5" is more common on 10x or less.
Good luck!
  
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Dale53
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Re: Scope mounts on Pope barrel ?
Reply #4 - Jan 14th, 2006 at 12:06am
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7.2" block spacing gives the proper spacing for one click of the scope mount to equal 1/4" at 100 yards. It is NOT an arbitrary distance.

Dale53





  
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JDSteele
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Re: Scope mounts on Pope barrel ?
Reply #5 - Jan 14th, 2006 at 11:41am
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The 7.2" dimension is not arbitrary, as Dale states, it's there for a specific reason. It's also true, however, that the larger higher-power Unertls as well as many of the much older scopes frequently have a wider base spacing due to their greater length. You should see how ridiculous my Borchardt looks with the 7.2" spacing and the big 2" Unertl on top of it! There's hardly room for the recoil spring, & the scope tube looks like it might bend from all that unsupported weight out front!

Your Pope barrel should be fitted with bases that will accept the Winchester A5 rings as well as the Unertl/Lyman type. These bases can be identified by noting the little indentation in the base on the side opposite the little half-moon cut. The half-moon cuts are for the common Unertl or Lyman or Fecker or Litschert rings which use them for a locating point, and the little indentations serve the same purpose for the Winchester A5 scopes as well as some other early ones. The indentation will be fairly shallow (~1/16"-3/32") and centered on the base front-to-rear & top-to-bottom, exactly opposite the half-moon cut on the other side. Many early Unertl-type bases have these little indentations but most later-manufacture bases do not.

The little indentations can be added by a careful workman using a pointed carbide burr in a hand grinder, but please be advised that some of these target scope bases are as hard as woodpecker lips!

Your Pope barrel was made during the time when many if not most scopes used the little indentations for location, and so those type bases would be the most appropriate for your rifle and would not give up a thing to the more modern ones.
Good luck, Joe
  
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CRK
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Re: Scope mounts on Pope barrel ?
Reply #6 - Jan 14th, 2006 at 11:20pm
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I am realy impressed with the sum of knowledge that this organization brings to bear on this type of issue. I'm realy appreacitive of these responsives. Now if we could just get Jim Borton to add " spell check" to his bag of tools so all of us Engineers would not have display our totallackof spelling ability, we could communicate with the rest of the world in an abarently educated manner.

Thanks to all who have commented so far.

   CRK
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Scope mounts on Pope barrel ?
Reply #7 - Jan 14th, 2006 at 11:40pm
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Yes, I know the reason for the spacing, but out of the 6 old scoped singles I own, only one has that spacing. The others all use a 8.5"-9" spacing. These were all scoped, or tapped for scopes when they came to me, so someone else decided the longer, larger tubes wouldn't work with the 7.2" spacing.
Actually one is tapped much farther apart, but it's for a full length Malcolm type tube.
  
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JDSteele
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Re: Scope mounts on Pope barrel ?
Reply #8 - Jan 15th, 2006 at 10:31am
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Spell check is wonderful..........if you don't already know how to spell & proofread. The problem is that some (many) words in English are easily confused as to spelling & pronunciation, and it appears that many of us didn't pay attention in school.

I think that the main problem is that many of us don't read; in these modern times it seems that most of us now watch the boob tube for our entertainment, and unfortunately it shows.

One aspect of the hole spacing that should be considered is the placement of the holes on the bbl. Not just the spacing, but rather the actual fore-&-aft positioning of the bases relative to the shooter's eye. The shorter smaller scopes require that the rear mount be placed on the receiver ring or just ahead of it, for proper eye relief, while the longer scopes need the front base placed significantly farther ahead in order for the recoil spring and/or clamp ring(s) to be in the right position. So, while the 7.2" spacing is done for a specific reason, it doesn't necessarily match all needs.
JMOFWIW, Joe
  
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FITZ
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Re: Scope mounts on Pope barrel ?
Reply #9 - Jan 15th, 2006 at 1:41pm
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CRK, your Pope rifle is drilled and tapped for the standard spacing that will give 1/4 minute clicks or 1/4" shift at 100 yds. Another spacing that was common was 12 1/8" inches
(Memory?) that gave 1/8 minute clicks. We also have to remember that for many the spacing had to do with the scope at hand. There were some variations that were common.
Stevens for example made a series of 30" long scopes, not full length but long enough to require longer spacing. I have a Schoyen Hiwall that is tapped for these scopes. The other issue is where the holes would land. I have seen rifles drilled and tapped in an odd spacing just so they would not land on the barrel stampings. On a Winchester Hiwall the 7.2 spacing wants to land right in the factory stamping. When Winchester recieved an order for a Rifle drilled and tapped for scope blocks, they would stamp the factory legend  and the caliber designation at the 10:00, ten O,clock position on the barrel so they would not have to drill into the lettering. I just bought one done in that way. As to Scope Blocks? Steve Earle of Plymton Mass. offers them in 4 0r 5 different heights  and with the correct screw hole spacing. His blocks are cut for both the modern scope clamp as in Lyman and Unertle but also have the left hand "Dimple" 
for the early Scopes such as the Winchester A-5 or Lyman 
5-A and the Stevens line of scopes. He advertises in both the 
Single Shot Exchange and the ASSRA Journal. His quality is top notch. And he supplies a set of brand new screws with each set of blocks. They are not easily found outside of gun circles as the size is 6-48. HTH and wishing you success with you Pope Rifle. Regards, FITZ.
  

FITZ
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MP
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Re: Scope mounts on Pope barrel ?
Reply #10 - Jan 15th, 2006 at 1:45pm
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I would add in regard to the Winchester A5 scope topic that if you have choices buy a Lyman 5A not the Winchester A5.  When I first started Schuetzen there were lots of Winchester A5’s around, it was not until I replaced them that I figured out what a poor scope they are.  The collector value of these nowadays far out weighs the user value IMO.
  
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FITZ
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Re: Scope mounts on Pope barrel ?
Reply #11 - Jan 15th, 2006 at 7:48pm
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CRK, I agree completely with MP. As an example. Many years ago Paul Shuttleworth used to visit my club when he was in the area. He stated to me and I quote. "The old Telescopes are nice to have if you wish to have a complete outfit from the era. But if you wish to be really competitive buy a modern scope such as a Lyman or a Unertle" my own experience has been the same as MP. I started wanting Winchester A-5 scopes. Then I came into a Lyman A-5 and realised the optics were superior to even my best Winchester A-5. Then on looking them over I discovered the difference between a Rolled guide groove in the tube as Winchester had
and a real Pope Rib a rectanguler guide on the outside of the tube that alligned the scope. My favorite Telescope's became the Lyman Super Targetspots. Not because of any Optical issues but because their greater length gives me more latitude as to fore and aft adjustment. many feel that Unertle Scopes have better optics and I would not argue about that because I really don't know if they are or are not better. HTH,
Regards, FITZ.
  

FITZ
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