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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) martini bench gun (Read 12303 times)
gunsbrad
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martini bench gun
Dec 26th, 2005 at 8:12am
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First of all thanks to all who recomended Schwartz and Dell's book.  I haven't finished reading it yet, but it is already worth the price of admission.

I have a small Martini 12/15 action I was thinking about making up into a .22lr bench gun.  I would like to hear opinions on barrels(length, diameter, which chamber, etc).  Also both dell and schwartz recomended fitting barrels with loctite.  Is this something that is still done, and is it recomended? This subject has me intrigued.

Also if you have any other opinions sling em my way.  This is still a concept and nothing is set in stone. 

Thanks,

Brad Hurt
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: martini bench gun
Reply #1 - Dec 26th, 2005 at 9:15am
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If you are going to rebarrel a 12/15, you would best go for either a bentz or match reamer for chambering.  Diameter?  check how much space you have to the top of the action from the middle of the barrel shank.  Even with the standard 12/15 barrel, these rifles produce awesome accuracy, so...1
I'm afraid I'm not the giuy to talk about loctiting barrels though, but I have heard it is the best way to do it.  Also, for a .22 it is best to have a slight 'rim compression' when closing the action for accuracy purposes.  Other than that - have fun with the rifle!
  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: martini bench gun
Reply #2 - Dec 26th, 2005 at 10:33am
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Brad, FWIW.  I'm using a 12/15--at least thats what I remember MI-shooter telling me it is--as my .22rf in the EG 22 only matches.  In the 200 yd bench competition I sincerely think that ammo selection and especially personal shooting skills (Wind reading--at EG) are more important than most anything else.  Of course thats pretty much assuming a basic level of rifle quality to start with.  At EG we see a lot of later model BSAs (the ones with adjust triggers), plus some nice Win/Ballard/CPA and the occasional Stevens

ON my rifle the factory barrel works just fine at least at my skill level.  If I wanted to make a bench gun out of it I would simply make a heavy weighted bench-style square forend and stock for it and have the trigger worked over by someone who really knows BSA triggers.
Once you get a good trigger and stable weight (and optics of course) the most critical thing  is finding ammo that matches your barrel. 
I imagine that a high quality custom barrel with a match chamber would make a difference but it would be incrementally smaller than the other improvements.  I've always wondered if a custom 22 barrel maker could would be able to tell you that his barrels will work best with a specific ammo of if you still have to do all the testing an evaluation after spending big bucks on the barrel?
  

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Dale53
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Re: martini bench gun
Reply #3 - Dec 26th, 2005 at 10:45am
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If you are going to build a bench rifle for rimfire, have the largest barrel you can mount on the rifle. In ASSRA, barrel minimum length is 21.5". Therefore, I would suggest a large diameter, relatively short (23" - leave a little leeway in case something happens and you have to set the barrel back to re-chamber). A match quality barrel (get the best that a particular manufacturer offers) from any of the major makers will do just fine. You might consider a stainless barrel. Most manufacturers, if pressed, would admit that their stainless barrels MIGHT be a bit better.

Then, have it chambered with a match reamer. It would be best if someone who is familiar with head space requirements of a .22 rimfire did the work. Have the barrel drilled and tapped for the type of scope you prefer (for instance, I prefer a modern scope).

Make, or have made, a true bench rest stock and forearm at the maximum dimensions allowed by ASSRA.

NO ONE can predict what brand or choice of quality .22 ammo will work best in your new rifle. I have settled that question to my own satisfaction with lots of experience with the problem. You just have to try various brands and types - when you find the combination that works, buy LOTS of that particular brand, type, and LOT number. If you like to shoot, this is NOT an onerous task. It will be fun to find out what your rifle likes. It is flat amazing to see the wide variance in down range performance that the various brands, types, and lot numbers have with your particular rifle.

Good luck!
Dale53
  
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38_Cal
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Re: martini bench gun
Reply #4 - Dec 26th, 2005 at 11:33am
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I would suggest that your gunsmith use a Bentz reamer, since the match reamers are intended for the leverage you get with a bolt action.  I used a match chamber on one of my Martini rifles that I lined, and found that the chamber was so short and tight that it took major effor to seat the cartridge.  I re-cut it with the Bentz, and that problem went away.  I've since found that by cutting the rim recess with a boring bar, and cutting the depth of the Bentz chamber with the reamer to match the ammo, I can get the bullet to start engraving without excessive force needed to seat the cartridge.  Makes it much easier for the kids to shoot!

David
Montezuma, IA
  

David Kaiser
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gunsbrad
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Re: martini bench gun
Reply #5 - Dec 26th, 2005 at 12:52pm
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Thanks guys,

I haven't had any experience with the bentz reamer although I am aware of them.   

I am leaning towards a full benchrest stock, and just happen to have a massive chunk of walnut set aside for the project.

As far as the barrel goes, cutting it longer than minimum is a good idea.  I probably can't go with stainless though.  I don't mind it in anybody elses gun, but it would hurt my conscience a little to have one on mine.  I will also probably go with a modern internally adjustable scope.  I expect to try different brands of ammo, but right now I am just trying to get the design to settle down.   

All ideas are appreciated.

Thanks 
Brad
  
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hst
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Re: martini bench gun
Reply #6 - Dec 27th, 2005 at 2:31pm
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Mr. gunsbrad:

I am an advocate of the loctite method. More accurately I advocate the non stressed fitting of a barrel to the action. The loctite really only comes into play when someone trys to drift a sight or something. The loctite keeps the barrel from breaking loose. Kind of an insurance policy. 

For this to work you need things to be right. The action face must be lapped square to the barrel threads and the thread form must be correct. If all is right the  action will snap tight against the barrel shoulder when you turn it home like it hit a wall. Failing either of these two it will get tight with a "mushy" feel when the action bottoms. If you get everything just right the action will lock solid on the barrel with just a twist of the wrist and need a good smack to break loose again.


Of course there is more than one way to fit a barrel, and I have that directly from the mouth of Mr. Charlie Dell himself.  We were discussing his book and barrel fitting and I allowed as how there were two ways to fit a barrel: My way and all the wrong ways.

Charlie got all solemn and told me that that was not correct, that there was more than one way to correctly fit a barrel. He said: "There is your way, and there is my way, and then there is all the wrong ways."

Glenn
  
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2520
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Re: martini bench gun
Reply #7 - Dec 28th, 2005 at 7:30am
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I have a Martini set up as a heavy bench rest rifle but it is not in .22 rimfire.  The rifle started out as a 22 Hornet and is now a 22 K Hornet.  Barrel is 1" untapered with stock and fore end in proportion.  Odd looking thing.  I have been debating to rebarrel and restock this action.  If interested, I would sell the stock and fore end at a real reasonable price to get this project going.  Will send pictures via snail mail.  Send your address by PM.  Stock/fore end is unfigured walnut.  2520
  
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gunsbrad
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Re: martini bench gun
Reply #8 - Dec 28th, 2005 at 8:35am
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2520
I appreciate the offer, but I will probably scratch build this stock myself.

hst
Thanks for the info on loctiting barrels.  I agree square and true is good, and I assume everything would have to be right for this method to work.  How about recoil though?  I can see rimfires, and maybe even relatively tame centerfires, but how about hard kickers?   
What kind of accuracy improvement can be expected?

Thanks,
Brad Hurt
  
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hst
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Re: martini bench gun
Reply #9 - Dec 28th, 2005 at 6:43pm
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Brad:

The recoil thing is not an issue. I fit barrels for .45-90 Creedmoor rifles in the same manner.  As far as better accuracy, that is very difficult to quantify. I do believe from my experience that a non stressed barrel/ action fit that is all square and flat combined with a concentric bore / chamber/ crown is easier to make shoot well and is a bit more forgiving of minor load and hold variations. Again, this is hard to quantify. Perhaps the bulk of the improvement is in shooter confidence. In any event, good workmanship is never going to be a detriment to accuracy.

Glenn
  
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JDSteele
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Re: martini bench gun
Reply #10 - Dec 28th, 2005 at 11:44pm
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Glenn, would you care to elaborate upon the method you use to obtain such a fit? I like that sort of fit myself, and can think of several ways to go about it. I use two different ways, depending, the scrape-in method and the thread mandrel method.
Always hoping to learn, best regards, Joe
  
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horsefly
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Re: martini bench gun
Reply #11 - Dec 29th, 2005 at 9:40am
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Good morning, Folks;

Glenn said, "In any event, good workmanship is never going to be a detriment to accuracy."  Truer words were never spoken!

As Joe said, I'd also like to hear your method.

Y'all be good.

horsefly
  
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Re: martini bench gun
Reply #12 - Dec 29th, 2005 at 10:35am
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HST:
Could you expand a little on your remarks above on lapping a barrel / action square and on correct thread form. I make mandrels and turn the action face square to the threads. I'm not sure how lapping would work. What is the issue you see re thread forms? Is thinking of threads on old single shots as either sixty degree vees or square threads wrong?
  

Bob Ryan
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hst
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Re: martini bench gun
Reply #13 - Dec 30th, 2005 at 2:27am
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Gentlemens and Mr. Horsefly:

Now look what I done got myself into...


The way I fit a barrel is pretty much as described by Wayne Schwartz in 'The Modern Schuetzen Rifle' by Schwartz and Dell. My techniques vary a bit based on what tooling I have and things learned in a past life as a machinist, (the one after Shirley McClain and I ruled Egypt) but the method described in the book is very hard to improve on. 

The basic idea is that the receiver threads are the center of the known universe, the base line which everything else relates to. The action face and the breech face are squared to these threads. The bore, chamber, barrel shoulder and barrel face are squared to the barrel threads because when the barrel is set up in the lathe the bore is indicated to be parallel and concentric with the lathe spindle, and these are all cut in the same setup. With the action all square to the receiver threads, and the barrel all square to the barrel threads, and a proper fit between the threads, the whole universe is in harmony.

The key to this is the threaded bushing and mushroom lap described by Schwartz. An appropriate piece of stock is chucked in the lathe and turned and threaded to fit the receiver threads as closely as possible. While the stock is still chucked and the threads perfectly concentric with the spindle, a 5/8"  hole is bored into the the threaded stock. This hole is finished to size with a single point cutter so the hole is perfectly concentric with the spindle and hence the threads. This threaded piece is cut free and you have a piece of threaded stock about 1" long with a hole precisely down the middle.

This bushing is turned into the receiver threads, the result of which is that you now have a 5/8" diameter hole in the action perfectly concentric with the receiver threads. 

A piece of cast iron stock a little larger than the diameter of the barrel (say 1-3/8" diameter) is chucked in the lathe and turned to have an 1-1/4" long section that just slips into the hole in the threaded bushing. The end of this section is machined square, as is the shoulder up to the diameter of the stock. You end up with a mushroom shaped piece with a 5/8" diameter stem 1-1/4" long and a 1-3/8" diameter cap. The bottom of the cap and the end of the stem is machined square to the stem. This piece is parted off so the head of the mushroom is of convenient length to handle.

We are now ready to square the action. The threaded bushing is threaded into the  disassembled action until is it just below the action face. The mushroom stem is fit into the bored hole and so the bottom surface of the head or cap is unavoidably perpendicular to the axis of the receiver threads. A small amount of abrasive lapping compound is placed on this bottom surface and the surface is brought into contact with the action face. A few spins of the mushroom will cut a witness mark in the action face. The mushroom is removed and the action face examined. 

Typically the mushroom will only touch at one side of the action face. More lapping will cause this spot to grow and the resulting surface is perpendicular to the receiver threads. The idea is to keep at it until there is full contact all the way around. If there is a lot of material to be removed the action will need to be set up and machined, but ultimately it is lapped until the action face is flat and square with the receiver threads.

Now the breech block is installed in the action and the threaded bushing is turned in until it is tight against the breech block and puts the block under load as it will be when the rifle is fired. The squared end of the  mushroom stem is used to lap a spot on the breech block face that is square to the threads. The block may or may not require machining, but the idea is to get a flat, perpendicular breech face to support the case head.

So there you have it.  All the working surfaces are concentric or perpendicular to each other. There is no side stress, the barrel shoulder is equally loaded around its entire diameter. The breech face is perfectly square to the chamber so nothing moves when the cartridge is fired. All is good and right in the world.


Respectfully,

Glenn Fewless

  
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JDSteele
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Re: martini bench gun
Reply #14 - Dec 30th, 2005 at 11:39am
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Thanks Glenn,
I haven't read the book but your method fits in with what I've done in the past, in fact I've made a practice of saving any cutoff chamber end stubs for just such an application, also makes it handy to have a pattern to match for the extractor cut(s).

A couple of thoughts here: I periodically take a trueing cut across the ends of the lap if removing a lot of material, in fact I now use the lap more as an indicator than as a cutter in most applications. I typically use needle files and stones to spot-face the high areas until solid contact is achieved, then cut the final few tenths with either abrasive paper glued to a stick or diamond-charged flat-face cutters or the lap itself. Time-consuming but it seems to work OK & it saves the lap's surfaces. Since I don't have a source for cast iron then I use brass or unhardened steel for the lap. Making a thread mandrel to true the action on the lathe really saves a lot of time on subsequent jobs, but I usually don't do it if I think I'm not likely to encounter another action like it, e.g. Ken Hurst's ancient Ballard with 8 tpi square threads (what a pain!).

Also instead of using the other end of the original lap for the breechface, I sometimes make another lap, as large as possible, to get a better indication across the entire face if possible.

I've never used Loctite but one of my professional smith friends does. One caveat here: one of my friend's customers had occasion to take his rifle to another smith for bbl removal, and the customer didn't know about the Loctite.

You can imagine the cursing & head-scratching. Luckily the smith decided to use a little heat instead of too much brute force, and it came on out OK without damaging anything.

I always stamp any out-of-the-ordinary info on the bottom of the bbl under the forearm, deeply, so that there won't be any misunderstandings later. Info like unusual twist, bore dimensions, chamber specs, bbl maker, bbl fitter, and (now) the presence of any adhesive.
Thanks for the info, hope you have a great new year, Joe
  
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