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cam0063
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Case Colours
Dec 20th, 2005 at 6:57pm
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Hello to all,

Has been a while since I last posted, partly thru a heavy work schedule and partially as my Singleshot BPCR is taking so damn long to be completed... I am hoping the Gunsmith will have his work finished early in the new year and it will then go to the Stock maker for some Nice Aussie timber to be fitted. I would have liked to have the action colour case hardened, but it isn`t an option available here...

The stock maker I use has mentioned that he does case colouring and the feedback I have from others is it is very good. I am interested to know how case colours wear [do they fade wear easily]? I didn`t ask the process used here, but out of curiosity am interested to know what techniques have been used to case colour?

cheers,

Cam...
  
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Green_Frog
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Re: Case Colours
Reply #1 - Dec 20th, 2005 at 11:51pm
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Cam,

     That question is almost as open as "What kind of finish can be applied to my stock?"  The kinds of case coloring range all the way from lightly applied surface (dis)coloration to a surface hardening several thousandths thick which also happens to provide color as well.  The various techniques are part science and technology, part art, and frankly, part black magic it seems  Shocked  If you find someone who does what you want and need, you have been most fortunate.  I don't think anyone will tell you that the COLOR of a case coloring job is all that durable, that's why many otherwise pristine early rifles have somewhat muddy or faded looking colors, but the HARDNESS of a well done color case hardening job does persist.  That is the quick story of my experiences with case colors, others may feel otherwise...YMMV, of course!  Wink

Froggie
  
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cam0063
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Re: Case Colours
Reply #2 - Dec 21st, 2005 at 12:23am
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Hey froggie,

Thanks for the info. Case hardening isn`t available here as far as I have found. I should have explained it better earlier, I meant - "surface (dis)coloration" for my case colour enquiry... I understand the durability of case hardened work, but not of case colouring [surface discolouration]. Have heard of people using acids to get the colours. Buffing to the white, then applying oil and passing a heat torch over it and other ways with snake oil ??? Just wondered if there were typical ways people used to get the colours and if they lasted, particulalrly when true Colour Case Hardnening isn`t available...

Cam...
  
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gunsbrad
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Re: Case Colours
Reply #3 - Dec 21st, 2005 at 7:36am
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cam,

I'll have to say that I personally haven't seen any of those snake oil treatments that hold a candle to the real thing.  I have tried most of them(except for cyanide) and haven't been satisfied with any of them.  If I can't have the real thing I would personally rather have a different finish.

However,  I suggest that you look at a few examples of this guys work, and if you like it then do it.  Don't let my opinions keep your rifle from looking the way you want it to.   

I haven't seen any of these finishes that are more durable than the real thing, some are much worse.  Lacquer can help it last but nothing I have found will keep it there forever.

good luck

Brad Hurt
  
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Green_Frog
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Re: Case Colours
Reply #4 - Dec 21st, 2005 at 10:07am
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Cam, you wouldn't be writing to us from "Down Under,"  would you?  I missed that initially.   Cheesy

The problems with hardening are the same regardless.  To get the attractive colors that are TRUE case colors, one must treat the piece in a special way AS the hardening process is being done.  The traditional method involves packing the piece in a mixture of carbon containing material such as bone charcoal, charred leather, etc., and then in an air tight environment (such as packed in clay, etc.) heat the piece up until the surface steel actually reacts with the available carbon and forms the tough and durable material desired.  The color is simply a side effect and and indicator that the event has transpired.  You have now pretty much exhausted my knowledge of the subject and it's time for a metallurgist to come fill in the gaps and correct the mistakes.   Roll Eyes

If my initial premise about your location is correct, I would suggest going to the oldest tool and die maker you can find and discussing it with him.  Be aware, however, that the heat applied in this process can do some nasty things to parts as well, and receivers especially need to be treated on some sort of bracket or armature to hold them from warping.   Embarrassed

All for now, HTH!
the Green Frog
  
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JDSteele
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Re: Case Colours
Reply #5 - Dec 21st, 2005 at 10:49am
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Cam, the technique Froggie described is the one used to actually surface-harden steels that don't contain much carbon or other alloying agents, such as those used in the old rifles of the 19th century. This technique will over-harden most all modern alloy tool steels, and should be used on only those steels that have a very low carbon content. I don't know what action you're using but this would be a big consideration if you did have access to a practitioner of the real hardening process. As it is, you probably don't have to worry much about ruining your action's hardness.

Like some of the others, I've seen some very attractive fake 'coloring' jobs & also some real uglies. You pays your money & you makes your choices (takes your chances?). BTW the cyanide jobs that I've seen didn't show many colors, very subdued.

Two things to do to keep your colors vibrant: a coat of clear lacquer, thinned, and keep it OUT OF THE SUN! This applies to the real thing, not necessarily to the fake 'colors'.
Good luck, Joe
  
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montana_charlie
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Re: Case Colours
Reply #6 - Dec 21st, 2005 at 3:12pm
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Quote:
The various techniques are part science and technology, part art, and frankly, part black magic it seems...

I'm no expert on this subject, and I have never seen it done, but...

I'm pretty sure that the 'science and technology' part is in heating the part (receiver) to the correct temperature.

The 'art' part is in choosing the proper mixture of carbon yeilding materials (bone, wood, leather, ect.) to create the desired colors.

And...the 'black magic' is in the quenching.
The temperature of the oil bath, how it is bubbled or swirled to create a mobile surface, and how the technician twists and turns the part as he dunks it in is what creates the rippling of the colors.

At least, that is what I have always thought...
CM
  

Retired...twice.  Now, just raisin' cows and livin' on borrowed time.
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cam0063
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Re: Case Colours
Reply #7 - Dec 21st, 2005 at 5:57pm
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Hi Brad, Froggie, Montana Charlie & Joe

Thanks for your input. Much appreciated... Is interesting to hear a little about the original process. The real case hardening treatment isn`t available, other than exporting the action to the US, so unfortunately not an option. Otherwise I would jump at it... So the fake option or bluing are my 2 main choices right now... 

Frog - yes I am Down Under, ranching near the south west coast of the country, the great state of Western Australia. Your explaination of the process is most helpful. Unfortunately we don`t have the resources and services available that you guys have... I wish!

Joe - Good to hear from you again... My action is a modern Browning Low wall. I didn`t realise cyanide was a process... Thanks for the warning on modern alloy steels... I suspected the sun might be an issue on all Case Coloring - no shortage of it here! Tho this is the mildest start to summer in 40 years. I think we will miss out on the 100f + Xmas day this year.

Brad - I will definitely look at his work next time I get to the city, prior to making a decision. He is about the best stock maker here and a true perfectionist. So anything he does wouldn`t leave the shop unless he was totally satisfied. But I will see for myself shortly... Beauty is in the eye of the beholder as they say Wink

Montana Charlie - "part art, and frankly, part black magic" well explained... I bet a group of guys spent many frustrating hours comming up with the formula they perfected so well all those years ago.

I wanted to hear some opinions and also what methods have been used and get as much basic grounding as possible on the finishes before I have anything done. I have invested far more into this project than planned and waited a long time for its completion, so don`t want to spoil it with a poor finish... Thanks and a very merry Xmas to all...

Cam...
  
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Dale53
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Re: Case Colours
Reply #8 - Dec 21st, 2005 at 8:25pm
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Here is an internet reference to "Color Case Hardening":

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You might want to "Google" for more information. Rather interesting.

Dale53
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Case Colours
Reply #9 - Dec 21st, 2005 at 11:23pm
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Hi Cam!
Well I've got a little experience with some of the fake processes, and they generally hold up even less than the real casehardened colors. I had a friend who overcleaned his Ruger Vaquero, and it now has a frame that is "in the white"!
On an interesting note, I had a friend who showed me a old single shot that he had done some fake case colors on. It took very close examination to tell they were faked, and I was amazed! He actually took thinned down enamel paint, in various colors, and did his own swirls and colors on the receiver. You could have knocked me over with a feather when he said it was paint! He put a coating of clear enamel over the finish, and so far it seems to be holding up well, the last time I saw the gun.
Guess there's always another way to do everything!
  
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hst
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Re: Case Colours
Reply #10 - Dec 23rd, 2005 at 1:46pm
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Mr. Cam0063

I stumbled upon a reference to someone in you part of the world that does what is billed as colour case hardening. Have a look at this thread:

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Glenn
  
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cam0063
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Re: Case Colours
Reply #11 - Dec 23rd, 2005 at 7:42pm
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Hi Glenn,

An outstanding job, many thanks... I know of Mialls gun Shop and will contact them asap. Has me a little perplexed as to why the small number of single shot rifles I have seen made in this country have sent their actions to the US to be Case Coloured? And why our countries top stock maker hasn`t been able to get it done here and took the artificial route. I better check this mystery out as getting the real deal than an artificial colour would be better... Will let you know how I get on..

cheers,

Cam...
  
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cam0063
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Re: Case Colours
Reply #12 - Dec 30th, 2005 at 8:13pm
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Well, Just heard back about Colour Case Hardening here in OZ -

"Aprox $850 to do your job but I would suggest that you blue the lever . 2weeks turn around"

Getting too pricey for me, so will check out the other options and finishes available. Kind of back to square one...

Best wishes for new year and 2006 to all...

cheers,

Cam...
  
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JDSteele
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Re: Case Colours
Reply #13 - Dec 31st, 2005 at 12:13am
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All I can say is - WOW! At least it's all that I will say on this forum. Considering that a case-color job in the US costs $100-300, that makes me wish I could move to OZ & open my own case-coloring business, it ain't that hard..............

Guy Lautard's excellent book Strike While the Iron Is Hot gives info on how to do a good job of case-coloring/hardening in one's own back yard, as well as info on barreling a Sharps-Borchardt. Brownell's, in thier Gunsmith Kinks series, gives details of the procedure and they also sell a furnace as well as an entire kit to outfit one's shop. Wish I had the disposable income.
Cheers, Joe
  
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hst
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Re: Case Colours
Reply #14 - Dec 31st, 2005 at 12:29am
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Cam:

Wow! That boy sure enough is proud of his work!

Are you certain that price is just for dropping it in the water? Mayhaps he is quoting the job with polishing and such. I could see that kind of price if it included a hand polish.

If not it seems like the man could use a little competition...


Glenn
  
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