Good folks,

We shot our regular monthly Schuetzen match here in Cody last Saturday and we had one person try to beat the records... You guessed, it was Steve Garbe.

We had a 'typical' cody breeze; about 3-7 from the west but was variable both in speed and direction. Garbe shot an official 2172 score with one target being a personal off-hand best of 237. This was made more interesting in the fact he was shooting his Ballard-Schoyen .22 RF for the attempt with iron sights. The equipment list: Ballard Rifle, crosswire front &  Ballard Rear sights, 900 Federal ammunition. It took him just under 2 hours for the attempt.

I understand that one other person has officially attempted this match, but we have not received his entry, nor official scores. We would like to keep track of the attempts - so please send the WSU your information. For the moment, send it to WSU/CO Rick Patton, 1007 Meadow Lane, Cody, Wy. 82414. Don't forget- if you attempt this match you need to pay your Schuetzenmeister BEFORE the match and have him/her send in the fees and scores ASAP. This way the prize pot keeps growing (the WSU is not receiving any portion of the match fees, they are all going to the prize fund). I'll be getting a WSU P.O. box soon and will be posting that information.

Thanks a bunch, an good shooting to SPG. We hope to see more attempts in the near future!

Rick Patton

AND...... I assume at 200 yds. to. WOW! I'm pretty sure I couldn't shoot that 237 off the bench at that range with a .22.

PETE

Rick,

  Here's a little footnote to Steve's run for the record. I looked up the scores Hudson shot in his record attempt as it seemed that I recalled that Steve's 237 would have been pretty close to the highest score Hudson shot. It was!  Hudson's highest target was a 236!

  So, even tho Steve didn't get the Hudson record he can have a little satsfaction in knowing he's shooting right up there with the best of the old timers.

PETE

  Not to take anything away from the scores that Steve is shooting. I'd have a hard time shooting his high .22 target off the bench at 200 yds. with that caliber.

  But....... It would seem to me that if an attempt is made at either the Hudson or Hayes record that it should be shot with a gun similar to what those two shot. Just offhand I'd say that to do the job in the "Spirit of the Game" that it should be shot with a CF rifle over .30 cal.

  Steve, I'm sure, will be the first to admit that the larger the cal. you shoot the more firing fatigue you have shooting offhand when dealing with the recoil and rifle control factors than is present with the lesser cal.'s. It's one of the reasons the old timers progressed from .45 cal.'s down to the .40's, .38's, .32's, .28's, & .25's. As you progress down the list scores increase when all other conditions are equal. After a length of time it was found that the .32/.35 cal. class of cartridges was the best for offhand shooting under the varying conditions found at matches.

  I've talked to some of our local Schuetzen shooters and they agree with my viewpoint. Are we wrong? I'd like to hear some comments on what others think.

PETE

Stevens52,

  You make some good points. The question tho isn't whether a good shooter can beat us with any rifle. In the case of the Hudson/Hayes records it's if those same shooters could duplicate those gentlemen's scores using the same type rifle. Fatigue being what it is I would suspect anyone shooting a .32 would see their scores lower than when using a .22. That seems to be the case with my own shooting of both rim and CF guns.

  .22's were available at the time and some very respectable scores shot with them indoors at 50 & 75 ft. I can't say for sure but believe no one shot a .22 when Hudson set his record. In fact I don't ever recall reading of anyone using a .22 rifle in regular 200 yd. competition.

  The match Hudson set his record in was the first major match where telescopic sights were allowed which caused a few of the better shooters to go home. In fact the man who the money said would win went home, and due to time the time factor and number of shooters, L.P. Ittel DNF. Another shooter who was expected to win. Hudson shot his record with iron sights so that put to rest the idea there was an advantage to using scopes, altho the 2nd, 3rd, & 5th place shooters did use them. Also Hudson used a duplex load consisting of  5 grs. of duPont No. 1 smokeless and the rest of the case filled with FG King's semi-smokeless.

  Of the top 27 shooters whose equipment was listed in S&F 15 used .32/40's, 3 used .33/40's, and the rest didn't give the calibers they used.

  Of those 27 shooters 15 used Stevens-Pope-Ballard rifles, 5 used Stevens-Pope rifles, 1 Sharps-Brochardt, and the rest used Winchester or Ballard barrels on various actions.

  If powder was listed it was always King's Semi-Smokeless.

  So, to again bring up my point. No one at that match shot anything less than a .32/40 as far as was recorded at the time. A lot of people do a lot of talking about "The Spirit of the Game". So in the "Spirit of the Game" shouldn't any try for the record be done with similar rifles and cartridges used by Hudson and his fellow competitors? Seems to me this would level the playing field beween us and the man who set the record. Maybe if you use any other caliber then we should put an asterisk behind that score to signify it wasn't accomplished under the same conditions.

PETE

With all due respect, I think you make my point for me. Do you suppose the "traditionalists" who shot black powder allowed that King's Semi-smokeless wasn't in the "spirit of the match" and thus refused to recognize any "new" records? Do you suppose that the Iron sight shooters who were upset refused to recognize any new records or MAYBE...and I think this is probably the case.......they sulked a while, grumbled awhile, discussed it on the chat board a while and then told the old lady they were going to spend a few hard earned dollars on one of them new fangled telescopes aaannnddd they allowed how they'd never be competitive if they didn't start shooting the semi-smokeless powder. I guess my point is that I view this in a broader generality than some. If they took whatever advantage they could and we do the same then things are equal. It's about how well you shoot the rifle not about what the rifle looks like, uses for fuel, or how heavy or whatever. It's plain based lead bullets in single=shot rifles and who can hold the steadiest long enough to get off a well placed shot and do it repeatedly.

Now you've left rational discussion. You have to abide by the rules of the game. Steve did. Sort through your reply, omit anything that doesn't follow ASSRA rules and you're ready to shoot. Hayes and Hudson had some restrictions so do we. It really is that simple. If you've got a better mousetrap and it's within the framework of the rules, bring it, we'll let you shoot it.

Conclusion. If the shooters of Hudson's era considereds shooting a .22 for some vague benefit they would have done it. A variety of .22's cartridges were commonly available. But they shot larger calipers. All in all, beating Hudson's record with a .22 would be a remarkable achievement, a combination of exceptional skills skills and finel wind conditions. And the shooter of that era often had a special advantage, shooting from an enclosure. 

Dick

Be interesting to post if anyone has information about matches shot with .22's in the classic era.