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waterman
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Whitworth rifling in a breech-loader
May 7th, 2005 at 3:38am
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I have thought about letting one of those Parker Hale repro muzzle-loading Whitworth rifles follow me home, but devalued $ put them out of reach.  But could you put one of those barrels on a breech loader?  And make it a strange .45-70?  The Whitworth barrels are .451.  You could neck the first inch of a .45-70 case into a hexagon shape.  Would that work?

waterman
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Whitworth rifling in a breech-loader
Reply #1 - May 7th, 2005 at 7:48am
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Waterman, correct me if I'm wrong, but Whit rifles USE a .451 bullet - land diameter, as otherwise you cannot get it in through the muzzle...  Groove dia. would be about .459, so....
And why the hex case?  Do you use cases formed to your rifling in  your other rifles?  Hex rifling is just that - another form of rifling.  Shoots quite well with round bullets too.  I would use groove dia. bullets in a breechloader though.
  
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waterman
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Re: Whitworth rifling in a breech-loader
Reply #2 - May 7th, 2005 at 8:44pm
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There are no lands & grooves with a Whitworth barrel, just a bore with 6 sides instead of being circular, with a twist of 1 turn in 22.5 ".  Apparently (not sure) the .451 is the distance between opposing flats.  If one is going to used swaged hexagonal bullets, seems to me you would need to orient them correctly, whether muzzle-loaded or breech-seated or loaded as fixed ammo.  My thoughts about forming the first inch or so of the case into a hexagonal shape would be to make it easier to orient the bullet.  The muzzle-loading Whits obviously must use a slightly undersized bullet, but users tell me that the bore must be clean or you soon have serious problems.  I do not know if the bullets are lubed. The set up would appear to lend itself to paper patching.  I have seen Lyman advertisements for a bullet mould with the first 3 numbers 458XXX as being suitable for Whitworths, but I do not see how that could be.  Seems to me if you used a cylindrical bullet, it would have to be either paper patched or hollow based or both.
  
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Bob_Allen
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Re: Whitworth rifling in a breech-loader
Reply #3 - May 7th, 2005 at 9:05pm
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This hex rifeling has my blood up.I am about to build (have built if the smith dont throw me out)a rifle with a hex bore.I never realised it but it is more common than I ever believed.
YES! a round bullet right stright thru.For the life of me I cannot envision the throat or lead but its being done.H---I"ve tried worse things.Pac-Nor and Lilja are two makers and there must be a demand.The military is usin em too.....
                                                               Bob
  
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Spud
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Re: Whitworth rifling in a breech-loader
Reply #4 - May 8th, 2005 at 12:17am
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Waterman,
I used to shoot a Westley Richards improved Martini with a barrel that had a hex bore. Cal was .450 #1 carbine (looks like a .45/75). Used cylinderical bullets (both paper patched & grooved bullets approx 380 grs) and it shot well with BP loads. Bullets recovered from the mound at the range did not appear to have bumped up much and did not have a hex shape. Just equally spaced rifling marks similar to that seen on bullets that have passed through a barrel with Henry rifling. Also used to shoot a Paker Hale Whitworth and it worked equally well with a cylinderical bullet (Lyman 451114). From memory the paper patched hex slugs used to foul the barrel badly and on occassions loading them could be a real chore.
  
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Re: Whitworth rifling in a breech-loader
Reply #5 - May 8th, 2005 at 7:57am
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I used to shoot a Westley Richards improved Martini with a barrel that had a hex bore. ..... Also used to shoot a Paker Hale Whitworth and it worked equally well with a cylinderical bullet (Lyman 451114). From memory the paper patched hex slugs used to foul the barrel badly and on occassions loading them could be a real chore.


Didn't the Westley Richards have octagaonal rifling, not hexagonal?

Most contemporary shooting done with the Whitworth muzzle loader was with cylindrical bullets. It was primarily the specialist long range riflemen shooting in competition that used hex bullets. 

David
  
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Re: Whitworth rifling in a breech-loader
Reply #6 - May 8th, 2005 at 8:10am
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....Whitworth rifles ... But could you put one of those barrels on a breech loader?


Well Whitworth did! He submitted a breech loading rifle for the trials that eventually ended with the adoption by the British of the Martini-Henry. The original invitation by the War Office was published 22 October 1866. Whitworth's cartridge case was hex shaped for it's full length, and included a 1:20 twist to match the rifling. (The latter point you might need to consider when necking you case to hex shape).

The Whitworth and Co. rifle was rejected as too heavy and withdrawn from the trials by the company.

David
  
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JDSteele
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Re: Whitworth rifling in a breech-loader
Reply #7 - May 9th, 2005 at 3:13pm
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Quote:

Whitworth's cartridge case was hex shaped for it's full length, and included a 1:20 twist to match the rifling. (The latter point you might need to consider when necking you case to hex shape).


I wonder how they chambered the dang thing?!?! Joe
  
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hst
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Re: Whitworth rifling in a breech-loader
Reply #8 - May 9th, 2005 at 4:21pm
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"I wonder how they chambered the dang thingHuh! Joe"



Shucks Joe, they just used a Ram EDM.

The onliest thing I can think of,  that would have worked on anything resembling a production basis, would be to heat the breech end of a drilled blank with a roughed out chamber and drive in a formed swage.  The rifling cutter could them be indexed to the chamber.

Forging on a mandrel would be another option, I reckon. 

Glenn
  
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Re: Whitworth rifling in a breech-loader
Reply #9 - May 10th, 2005 at 3:23am
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dbm. You are completely right! That Westley Richards Martini definitely had oct rifling not hex. My memory must be going or maybe the brain has been taking a pounding lately. Been working up loads for a Ruger #1 in .404 Jeffery!
  
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JDSteele
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Re: Whitworth rifling in a breech-loader
Reply #10 - May 10th, 2005 at 11:44am
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Quote:
or maybe the brain has been taking a pounding lately. Been working up loads for a Ruger #1 in .404 Jeffery!


I remember a few years ago I had one o' them things. It was QUITE an experience, maybe even more impressive than the one I had in 50-110 WCF! I'll stick with my 45-70-500 @ 1700 fps, it's not nearly as tough on the shooter. Joe
  
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waterman
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Re: Whitworth rifling in a breech-loader
Reply #11 - May 13th, 2005 at 12:54am
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This has sure got off the Whitworth thread, but the twists are interesting to follow.  I used to work for a guy who spent half of every year hunting in Africa.  I've shot most of the big ones scores of times & like you used to get beat up pretty badly.  Then I was looking through an old book and saw a woodcut titled "John Rigby testing one of his rifles".  The woodcut showed a pair of heavy-duty sawhorses, but with the legs made shoulder high.   So I made a bench rest like the one in the woodcut.  It worked quite well and took a bite out of the recoil.  Then I got 4 regular cloth bags of 7 1/2 shot.  I took the unopened bags to the local saddle shop and paid the guy to sew the ends of each pair of bags together.  I put one pair of bags over my shooting shoulder, one bag between me & the rifle and the other end of the pair over my shoulder for ballast.  The remaining pair of bags went around the small of the stock.  Mostly I was shooting double rifles or fancy bolt actions, no DSTs or such and the bags of shot around hte small of the stock were able to swing free.  I was surprised how accurate some of those big double rifles were once you dampened the recoil.  Doubles are not twice a single shot, but some of them shoot darn well for a glorified shotgun.

Now would someone please explain how to chamber the Whitworth .451-70?
  
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MartiniBelgian
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Re: Whitworth rifling in a breech-loader
Reply #12 - Jun 13th, 2005 at 3:53am
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My take on it - flats = lands, corners = grooves.  In a BL, you would chamber to shoot groove-diameter bullets.
FWIW, Hnery rifling is nothing but glorified Whit rifling - 7-sided, and with an extra ridge in the grooves - so if Henry rifling can be done with a normal reamer (at least, my Martini's don't have septagonal cases...), why not a Whit?  Just put the drawing on paper and check it out.
  
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