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Hot Topic (More than 10 Replies) Speed Lock for low wall (Read 15210 times)
WillH
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Speed Lock for low wall
Apr 14th, 2005 at 1:05pm
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Hello to all, I am new to the forum.  I have enjoyed reading the post, very interesting!

I have a question:

I own a Ballard Rifle built low wall built about two years ago in .22 RF.  The rifle shoots just okay!  I am struggling with consistency.  I suspect the age old problem of hammer swing and lock vibration is the culprit.   

I would like to explore the idea of having a “speed lock” modification done to the action! The speed lock I’m referring too is a hammer modification that basically involves removing the full cock notch and modifying the half cock notch to accept the sear and increasing the spring pressure.   

I couldn’t find any information on speed locks in the archives. 

Perhaps someone could steer me in the proper direction?

Best,

Will
  
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ken_hurst
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Re: Speed Lock for low wall
Reply #1 - Apr 14th, 2005 at 2:06pm
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Yeah, I'd like to hear something on this subject. Never heard of anyone offering this service.  J.D. Steele should know something about this subject --- he is our resident expert on walls.   Ken
  
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Green_Frog
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Re: Speed Lock for low wall
Reply #2 - Apr 14th, 2005 at 4:14pm
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Willh & Ken

     At one time I owned a high-wall that had reputedly been altered to a speed lock configuration by Ohio gunsmith CC Johnson.  The half cock notch was ground away and the full cock notch was relocated about halfway between the original full cock and where the half cock notch had been.  Perhaps CC's grandson, Jerry Johnson will see this and have some further information to add as unfortunately I no longer own that rifle to take measurements, etc.  Undecided  As I recall, however, this was the only alteration necessary, and as long as you had a sufficient arc of travel for the hammer to set off the primer (this was a flat spring action with a .22-3000 chambering) you would have a very simple conversion.  8)

HTH,
Froggie
  
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40_Rod
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Re: Speed Lock for low wall
Reply #3 - Apr 14th, 2005 at 5:43pm
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There used to be a number of smiths that did this kind of work.  The half cock notch is ground off and a new full cock notch is ground in. Then the mainspring block is filed at a slight angle to increase spring pressure. Lastly the hammer is lightened by drilling holes. There are some good pictures in The Story of Popes Barrels. As for who does the work now I can only suggest A couple of smiths that I would feel good about asking. Bob Snapp would be first on my list. Then I would try Glenn Fewless or Steve Durren I do not know if any of these smiths will do the work as it requires taking out the half cock notch (a safty item) with lawyers lurking in every rathole this may be a deal breaker.

40 Rod
  
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JDSteele
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Re: Speed Lock for low wall
Reply #4 - Apr 14th, 2005 at 6:41pm
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40 Rod is essentially correct in every particular with only a few comments from me.

Bob Snapp is certainly one of the top two or three single shot smiths in the country IMO (actually THE best IMO) but I understand he's retired from normal smithing now & only does special projects these days. I have the utmost respect for the work of both Steve and Glenn, and recommend both of them every chance I get.

The conversion to speedlock is done as detailed in the other posts, by any of several methods depending upon the smith. Each is equally effective if done properly and I personally have no preference. I own one speedlock hammer acquired from an old-time Wall shooter in NYC, and I really like it on my 22LR Schuetzen Wall.

But I'll bet the speedlock isn't the entire solution to your 22RF Wall accuracy pursuit. These rifles have a continuing reputation for indifferent accuracy, and I believe it's due to their breeching design with its lack of meaningful headspace support and probable cushioning of the firing pin blow. The speedlock certainly will help, I'm just not sure HOW MUCH it'll help.

I'm working on some more 'improvements' for the RF Wall's breeching design, will write it up for the Journal when (& if) I get meaningful results.
Meanwhile, good luck & regards, Joe
  
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ken_hurst
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Re: Speed Lock for low wall
Reply #5 - Apr 14th, 2005 at 10:40pm
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Joe,  I just finished engraving a piece for Bob --  he did a lowall for me and has promised to do a few more lo & hiwalls that I need to get bbl;d and such, I will ask him about doing this work.    Ken
  
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WillH
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Re: Speed Lock for low wall
Reply #6 - Apr 14th, 2005 at 11:29pm
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Gentleman,

Thanks for the info, I am paying attention.   

I believe I have a solution!  The liability issue by the legal $ss holes really raises my blood pressure.   

Anyhoo, I do appreciate the information and perhaps more will follow. I do however have a possible solution.   

I realize the speed lock is not a complete cure all.  This rifle is fitted with a Krieger #4 barrel that shoots - at times! The barrel is tight at the muzzle and slugs better than any barrel I own!  It is a good barrel! I want to make those little bug holes a consistent occurrence...........

Best, 

Will
  
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hst
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Re: Speed Lock for low wall
Reply #7 - Apr 15th, 2005 at 2:46am
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Mr. WillH

I am kind of thinking from the little information we have that you have a problem other than the hammer. The first thing that comes to mind is the stock bedding. Check to make sure that the butt stock screws are tight. Also, it is important that there is a little air between the forend and the action. If there is any question about this (it can be hard to tell with a Winchester) try shooting it without the forend.

The second is firing pin problems. Is it intact and moving freely and hitting the rim in the proper location?

Does the rifle have a set trigger?

Glenn
  
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WillH
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Re: Speed Lock for low wall
Reply #8 - Apr 15th, 2005 at 12:56pm
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Glenn,

If the others don't mind a little off topic discussion on the "Gunsmith" section of the forum, I'll proceed.  We can always move off and start another thread! Here goes...

First, the rifle will shoot into a 3/8 - 1/4 inch (and smaller!) C to C groups @ 50 yds. with Eley Semi-Auto from the #4 machine.  SK Match also shoots very well as does UM1.  I have no more UM1. The trouble is it will shot one, two or three tight groups and then the next 1-4 groups will be 1" - all over the place.  And I can't figure out why!?  Ballard has rechambered the rifle and it does have a butt screw.  BTW the barrel is a 26" long tight bore (.215 x .222) and the rifle weighs in at 10.5 lbs naked. The scope is a Lyman SS 20X (it is tight) and shoots fine on my 40X.

Yes, to the set trigger!

I have eased the wood where it touches the receiver.  And yes, I have shot the rifle with out the forearm in place.   

Actually, the rifle shoots best, for me, not resting on the forearm but resting on the barrel just ahead of the forearm tip about 3".   

Steve Garbe is looking at the firing pin and block as I write this response.

Glenn, I know this sounds like I’m countering all your options.  But, we have been at this for months.  I know it’s either the rifle, or me, that is the problem.  When ya see those tiny groups it feels great – but I need to see a string of them not just a few!

I even thought that just shooting the rifle would settle it down, but that doesn’t seem to be the case.   

Hell it could be me! Dunno………

Best,

Will
  
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hst
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Re: Speed Lock for low wall
Reply #9 - Apr 15th, 2005 at 3:17pm
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Will:

" Hell it could be me! Dunno……… "

A real rifleman never blames himself when he can blame  his equipment.


No problem with me, I was just rounding up the usual suspects.

This may seem weird to everybody but Mr. Steele, but when you have it all back together try shooting it without setting the trigger.

Glenn
  
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WillH
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Re: Speed Lock for low wall
Reply #10 - Apr 15th, 2005 at 4:47pm
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Glenn,

Look here, I paid good money for that flippen, fly'en, smack the sear contraption, so I damn sure gonna use it!
Believe it or not, I originally ordered the rifle without a set trigger.   

Good point, now you've got me rethinking.  Bet you're right!

Just how hard can it be to fit an adjustable single trigger to a low wall?  I’m not too keen on shipping that rifle off again!  Someday California will not allow it back in!  Also, I don’t want to give the UPS anti-gun employees any more attempts at the rifle?

Best,

Will
  
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JDSteele
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Re: Speed Lock for low wall
Reply #11 - Apr 15th, 2005 at 9:03pm
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Adjustable single trigger on an original-style low wall? Would be pretty complicated but I reckon it could be done, but isn't really necessary since your rifle should fire just fine in the unset mode anyway. Walls can be a problem when the unset pull is adjusted below about 16-20 oz, because of the rolling action on the sear during lever closure. Not conducive to retaining sharp sear edges, so be careful.

The unset pull is obtained by A) adjusting sear angles (if needed), B) reducing sear engagement to ~0.015"-0.020" and C) reducing sear spring tension to ~1/3 of the original. Try the pull, if still too strong then reduce sear engagement a little more until you like it.

I am notorious for liking LIGHT triggers but I don't use any wall with an unset pull below 20 oz, for safety reasons.

Also please be advised that I have some very believeable evidence that using the set function on a set trigger will increase group sizes (poorer accuracy) by an average of 10% or more. I personally have fired the better part of 1000 rounds while testing this phenomenon, and have saved the targets to prove it. This was done with a selection of walls with all three styles of wall set trigger as well as several other rifles including bolt actions with several styles of set triggers, Canjar, Anschutz, Kepplinger, etc.

As you can probably tell, I like set triggers A LOT, so it kinda broke my heart when all those old wives' tales proved to be true and my groups opened up when using the set feature. But the proof is in the shooting and the targets don't lie.

I don't care, I still put set triggers on almost all my custom rifles.
Good luck, Joe
  
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WillH
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Re: Speed Lock for low wall
Reply #12 - Apr 15th, 2005 at 9:29pm
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Joe,

I’m obviously new to this whole deal!  I won't make claims of being expert - no way!  I pretty much follow what I hear and read, then only believe the information I can actually try for myself.  This has worked for years - well, except for a few personal habits. Smiley

You certainly speak with authority!  I respect that!  My reading tells me you are correct.

I have copied your info on using/modifying the double set as a single set.  I have a set of good stones an do my own trigger work.  When I get my block and firing pin back and the speed lock, I'll settle in with my loupe and go to work!  This rifle is worth the effort.  Besides, too many people are laughing at me - can't have that! Wink

I sincerely appreciate your suggestions and information. Priceless!  Thank you.........

Best,

Will
« Last Edit: Apr 15th, 2005 at 11:39pm by WillH »  
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waterman
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Re: Speed Lock for low wall
Reply #13 - Apr 16th, 2005 at 1:42am
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Will, you have obviously put many zlotys and a lot of effort into the low wall .22 target rifle.  But I think that the Winchester folks tried to solve the same problem about 1919 and decided that it was easier to just build 52s.  It was not just a marketing gimmick back then.  The factory-new single shot .22 target rifle to beat was a Stevens, not a Winchester.  I shoot a Winder (not at all in the same class as your rifle) as a 4-position rifle and the zero wanders from position to position and except for offhand, the zero is never the same as it is on the bench.

Richard
  
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WillH
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Re: Speed Lock for low wall
Reply #14 - Apr 16th, 2005 at 11:04am
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Richard,

You're correct!  But, I wanted a low wall and have for years!   I shoot a 40X and it is very accurate indeed.  I do not expect the low wall to compare to a 40X or Winchester 52 - just be a little more consistent.   

Besides the low wall is more fun to shoot than the 40X! And, the low wall just looks like a rifle!   

Never claimed to be smart - stubborn, yes!

Joe, 

I took the trigger group out last night and certainly understand the concept. I’ll need to wait until the new speed lock hammer arrives before attempting to work on the sear.  The spring pressures are very modest!  The small spring that applies pressure to the forward trigger is very mild, I see what you mean about not going too light! The sear looks perfect - but then it should being nearly new!  I didn't measure the thickness, but it's gotta less that .020".   

Gawd, those set triggers are clunky – love it!

Best,

Will
  
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