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powderman
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44-40 loads for Ballard
Apr 12th, 2005 at 4:58pm
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I am new to the use of single shot rifles and cast bullets and I would appreciate any advice on suitable smokeless powder loads for a number 2 Ballard rifle chambered for .44WCF using a lead 200grain bullet. I have been told the Ballard is a weak action and not suitable for smokeless powder. Any thoughts on the use of a wad or filler in the cartridge. Thank you.
  
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singelshotman
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Re: 44-40 loads for Ballard
Reply #1 - Apr 12th, 2005 at 6:40pm
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When i had a ballard in 44-40 i always used black powder for that reason-but 35 grains is all you can get in the case these days-the reason about smokeless is that it is far too easy to get a double-charge in a big case like that(my dad did it with a rolling block) the rolling block was OK, but the barrel was ruined.With a cast iron balllard action, you would have a hand-grenade in your hands if you double-charged it.
  
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powderman
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Re: 44-40 loads for Ballard
Reply #2 - Apr 14th, 2005 at 12:09pm
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Singleshotman
Thanks for the heads up on double charging while reloading. A real dangerous situation if fired no matter what type of action used, as you point out your father discovered. I would still appreciate any information about smokeless powder loads for the 44-40 and the use of wads or filler in the cartridge as I have read about barrels being ringed by the use of wads and increased pressure with the use of cream of wheat filler. I promise I will try my best to exercise caution no matter what I reload.
  
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waterman
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Re: 44-40 loads for Ballard
Reply #3 - Apr 16th, 2005 at 1:22am
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Powderman,
That old Ballard is a grand way to learn about singleshots.  You can make a bullet seater with a dowel and an empty cartridge case and then you can shoot breech-seated or semi-fixed ammunition and watch your groups tighten up.  There are many, many cast bullet designs suitable for your rifle.  But please stick to black powder.  If it were mine, I would not shoot it with smokeless.  I would leave the wads & fillers alone, except for a card wad in the case mouth when shooting with the bullet breech-seated.  Eyes & fingers are worth more than old rifles.

Richard.
  
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powderman
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Re: 44-40 loads for Ballard
Reply #4 - Apr 16th, 2005 at 3:19pm
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Richard,
Thank you for the advice. My reloading experience is with smokeless powder. Although it sounds like fun to use, I have kept away from using black powder because of my inexperience with its use and the clean-up after shooting it. Would there be any advantage or disadvantage to using a product like Pyrodex instead of black powder? You say you would leave the wads and fillers alone except a card wad in the case mouth when breech-seating. Would that be a wad made from a playing card?Does breech-seating eliminate the possibility of ringing the barrel when using a wad? What granulation of black powder would you use in th 44-40?
  
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Dale53
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Re: 44-40 loads for Ballard
Reply #5 - Apr 17th, 2005 at 1:32am
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You can easily use black powder for your Ballard. Simply fill the case to the point that your bullet, when seated, will compress the powder no more than 1/16th of an inch. Be sure and use a black powder bullet lube such as SPG. I normally use Emmert's Home mixed bullet lube.

The difficulty of cleanup when using black powder is greatly exaggerated. Two wet patches of any good black powder solvent and a couple of dry patches followed with a good preservative is absolutely all it takes. My solvent is home mixed "Friendship Speed Juice" (one pint each of Murphy's Oil Soap, Rubbing Alcohol , and Peroxide). Store in a dark bottle. This immediately dissolves black powder fouling. You must immediately run a patch wet with a good preservative thru the bore and on the outside after using the solvent. My personal favorite is "Break Free".

Dale53
  
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waterman
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Re: 44-40 loads for Ballard
Reply #6 - Apr 17th, 2005 at 3:18am
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The above message said almost everything.  The only thing I would add is that you need to clean your cartridge cases as assiduously as you clean the rifle.  Get a small bottle brush to scrub the fouling out of the inside of the cases.

Richard
  
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Dale53
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Re: 44-40 loads for Ballard
Reply #7 - Apr 18th, 2005 at 8:52pm
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Waterman;
You're absolutely right, the cases need immediate and regular attention.

The easiest and one of the most thorough methods is to decap the cases as soon as possible after the match. There are ways of decapping on site. A simple punch and base will work as well as anything if you have a bench. A Pope re-decapper works quite well, also. Then drop the empty, decapped cases in a plastic milk jug of water with a "squirt" of Dawn diswashing detergent in it and drop the cases inside. Let them stay there until you get home. Then I rinse them several times, still in the jug.

I use a plastic kitchen strainer to dump the cases in and shake most of the water off. Then I drop them in a case tumbler (large Dillon vibrator tumbler) and run for an hour or so (I don't wait until they dry - the media will dry them almost immediately). You do need to check primer pockets to see that they are clear, afterwards. I have used this method for years with no case loss.

Dale53
  
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Re: 44-40 loads for Ballard
Reply #8 - Apr 18th, 2005 at 9:00pm
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Waterman;
You're absolutely right, the cases need immediate and regular attention.

The easiest and one of the most thorough methods is to decap the cases as soon as possible after the match. There are ways of decapping on site. A simple punch and base will work as well as anything if you have a bench. A Pope re-decapper works quite well, also. Then drop the empty, decapped cases in a plastic milk jug of water with a "squirt" of Dawn diswashing detergent in it. Let them stay there until you get home. Then I rinse them several times, still in the jug.

I use a plastic kitchen strainer to dump the cases in and shake most of the water off. Then I drop them in a case tumbler (large Dillon vibrator tumbler) and run for an hour or so (I don't wait until they dry - the media will dry them almost immediately). You do need to check primer pockets to see that they are clear, afterwards. I have used this method for years with no case loss.

Dale53
« Last Edit: Apr 18th, 2005 at 9:07pm by Dale53 »  
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xxgrampa
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Re: 44-40 loads for Ballard
Reply #9 - Apr 22nd, 2005 at 12:40am
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greetings powder man.

been shooting smokeless loads in a lot of old 44-40's. the trick is to use lo pressure ,loads.

the best way to find one is to call or contact the powder mfg.

think a good place to start is the 5744 pwd. forgot who makes it. anyhow, get hold of them, tell them about your rifle and i'm sure they can give you a start on a super target load.
PS i'm sure you know a 44-40 is s 427 and not a 429 bullet..

..ttfn..grampa
  
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powderman
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Re: 44-40 loads for Ballard
Reply #10 - May 5th, 2005 at 5:37pm
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Hello xxgrampa, 
Thanks. I was aware the 44-40 takes a .427 bullet.  When using smokeless powder do you use a over powder wad or filler in the case? If so, what do you use for the filler or wad and if a wad do you leave a air space above the powder? Have you had any problems with a ringed barrel or chamber?
Powderman
  
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marlinguy
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Ballards may be weaker,
but they sure are neater!

Re: 44-40 loads for Ballard
Reply #11 - May 5th, 2005 at 7:39pm
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If you use the right powder, that is not position sensitive, you wont need wads. You really do need to use extreme caution in reloading the Ballard #2 in .44-40, even more so than other Ballards, due to the cast iron vs. forged receivers used in other Ballards. 
I think that's why most of the guys here are trying to steer you towards black powder. I shoot carefully reduced smokeless loads in my Ballards, even with forged receivers.
  
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powderman
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Re: 44-40 loads for Ballard
Reply #12 - May 8th, 2005 at 8:36pm
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Marlinguy,
Thanks for the reply. I noticed on a previous posting to this forum about the use of Unique powder and chamber rings the following:

      Unique and Chamber Rings
« on: Oct 15th, 2004, 6:30am »      Quote Modify
Hi;
I just read on the cb-l that Unique causes rings in rifle chambers with no wads, and that Shiloh and Ruger are aware of this. Is anybody out there aware of this? I use a lot of Unique in my Sharps.
Thanks;
joe b. 

joeB;
The cause of chamber rings has been thoroughly explored by Charlie Dell. His book, "The Modern Schuetzen Rifle" has a chapter devoted to this subject. He build a brass barreled test "rifle" (brass is weaker than barrel steel so he could demostrate that he could produce a ring at will). Using most any fast burning smokeless powder in a case with lots of air space can create a ring if you do things incorrectly. Seating a wad .100"-.200" off the powder will eliminate the ringing force. It is the perpendicular "wave" force that causes the ringing force at the base of the bullet. Allowing the powder to "slump" eliminates the perpendicular wave force and also the ringing force.

I have loaded a few 44-40 cartridges with a 200 gr. cast bullet with 5.5grs of Winchester 231 and no wad or filler but after reading the above I am not sure I should try them. I would like hear more about your experience with smokeless powder reduced loads without the use of wads.  I guess I might break down and try black powder as soon as I get the proper lube and figure out how to apply it.   
 
  
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xxgrampa
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Re: 44-40 loads for Ballard
Reply #13 - May 16th, 2005 at 12:36am
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hi-ho powder man,,

sorry about being late getting back, but my comp couldn't find the assra for a couple of days..

first a disclaimer, i do not recomend smkls in your rifle..

second, i would not use unique in your gun, it just burns too fast with  hi-press. i have put a ring in a shilo (mine)  and a 1st gen colt single action. (also mine)with unique and fillers.

third i also would not use fillers and-or wads in your gun.. fillers or wads increase pressure and we want to find a lo-press load for you...
now a little info for you to draw some conclusions.

a bp load for a 44-40 (appox 35 gr. 2-3x) with a 200 gr bullet would generate appox. 9200CUP of pressure. so.. our target is , less than 9200CUP.digging around a bit we find hodgdon, titegroup5.0gr with a 200gr bullet gives us758fps with a pressure of 8400PSI, "note PSI not CUP".. psi and cup are not interchANGE ABLE. BUT I HAVE SHOT THAT LOAD IN PISTOLS AND RIFLES AND IT JUST "POPS" WITH ZERO RECOIL..

just because i did doesn't mean you should.. be carefull cause just going from 5.0 to 6.2 grs powder the pressure jumps from 8400 psi to 12,000psi. 

if you went from a 200gr bullet to a 180gr. the press should drop appox 15-20%.

the tricky thing about old guns is, if you work up a load in the normal way, the gun is junk before the case shows any sign of pressure.(:>))

good luck and ..ttfn.. grampa..

PS if i havn't confussed you enuff, give me a hollar 714 538 7284..
  
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xxgrampa
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Re: 44-40 loads for Ballard
Reply #14 - May 20th, 2005 at 10:39pm
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hi-ho powderman,

you hung up just as i was coming in the door. next time leave your number and i'll call you back..

..ttfn..grampa..
  
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