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waterman
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An inheritance and a blown primer
Apr 9th, 2005 at 10:24pm
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Awhile back, I reported on a low wall that had been rebuilt & rebarreled to .25-20 Repeater.  Last week I had my first opportunity to spend a whole day at a range, just me & the .25-20, with no interruptions for some hours.  So that's the rifle to which I refer.  Now about the ammunition.  A couple of years ago, my friend died and his widow gave me a very large batch of cast bullets. Probably a couple of hundred pounds of them, all sized & lubed and put away into dozens of small metal containers that formerly held shoe polish or leather dressing or some such. My friend had a .257 Roberts and a large # of moulds and cast a lot of bullets.  So I sorted through the containers and found most of the .25 caliber bullets, hundreds of them.  Then I got 100 new R-P .25-20 Repeater cases and a batch of CCI small pistol primers.  I have RCBS dies, etc., but I also have an old Ideal tong tool marked 25-20 R.  In the course of my employment, I spend 2 or 3 nights a week on the road and motels are a drag.  Loading 25-20 repeater cartridges beats the heck out of watching TV or hanging out in the local bar. So I put the tong tool, an old RCBS powder scale (the simple kind) and all the rest of the stuff I'd need into my travelling kit.  The first night out, I cleaned several batches of bullets, wiping off excess lube, sorted the good ones by weight and picked out 10 of each kind in the 80 to 90 grain range to try.  Then I expanded the mouths of the cases.  After that, I primed all the cases with the tong tool and picked out a starting load.  I read all the manuals I had and decided to start with 8.7 grains of IMR-4227 and to use that load for 10 different categories of bullets.   

The procedure was the same for each load.  Powder went into a shallow dish.  From there it was trickled into the pan on the scale with a spoon.  The scale was levelled & zeroed before each loading session, motel tables being what they are.  When the scale indicated 8.7 grains, I fit a powder funnel over the mouth of the empty case and poured the powder into the funnel.  Then I checked the depth of powder in each case with a flashlight, started the bullet into the case by hand, and finished seating with the tong tool.  All cases are kept in loading blocks when not being used.  By the end of the second night, I had loaded all 100 new cases and had 10 load & bullet combinations to try.

I had time last Tuesday and off I went to the range.  The first 60 + shots went OK.  Nothing to rave about, but I progressed from 50 yards to 100 and got the sights adjusted and was keeping the bullets in the black.  Then one went off with a real crack and a lot of smoke shot out of the bottom of the action.  I dropped the lever and the case came out with a big scorch mark on the primer pocket.  I'd blown a primer.  Not propitious, given the past history of this rifle as reported in the SSR Journal.  Then I looked down the bore.  No stuck bullet and all the powder had burned.  Checking the target showed a new hole right in the middle of the group I was shooting.  A patch on the cleaning rod showed a dirty bore, but no buildup of lube and no leading.  I scrubbed the bore and the chamber with a bronze bore brush.  No leading.  I blew into the fired case, but it seemed not to have a hole anywhere.  The bullet was a Loverin type gas check, 85 grains, cast very hard, lubed with Red Rooster and seated so that the entire base was within the cartridge neck.  No gas checks hanging down into the powder space.

This past Thursday, I was on the road again.  I weighted all the fired cases with the primers in place.  The spread was 65.7 grains to 60.4 grains.  The case with the blown primer weighed 60 grains.  I checked all the case lengths.  All within 0.005 and all within spec.  I measured all the case head diameters.  All had expanded, but the case with the blown primer was right in the middle of the range, 0.3450.  Other case heads had expanded to as much as 0.3455.  Nothing indicates an overload to me, but what happened?  The most likely culprit seems to be an overload from the old powder scale.  How reliable and accurate are they?  And I suppose the primers could be suspect.  Next week I'll take a magnifying glass and look at the primer pockets.
  
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ssdave
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Re: An inheritance and a blown primer
Reply #1 - Apr 9th, 2005 at 11:41pm
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This is the reason I don't use pistol primers in rifle cases.  I did the same thing with CCI pistol primers in my winchester 25-20 model 92.  Some of the primers pierced, although none leaked appreciably.  But, you could see the black mark on the primer indentation.  I quit using them and use rifle primers, and had no more problems in the 92.  I now also have a low wall .25-20, and I use only rifle primers in it.   

The reason to use the pistol primers is that they may be less energetic than a rifle primer, and may increase accuracy.  The tradeoff is that they are designed for lower pressures, and have a thinner cup and are just slightly shorter.   

I don't like the primers backing out and slamming into the breechblock.  That can cause breechblock wear.  The thinner cup also is a probably cause of the primer blowing out.  Couple this with an old, maybe eroded or worn firing pin, or just generally not fit right, and you have a potential accident.

Things you can do is check your firing pin length of protrusion, look at it and see if it's nicely rounded on the end or has a sharp end or angle to it, and fire a few primed, unloaded cases and examine with a magnifying glass to see if the firing pin pierces any of them.  If not, use rifle primers for a while and see if any of them have problems. 

Unless you're using very unusually heavy bullets, I don't believe you have a pressure problem, I use stiffer loads than that in my low wall with no pressure problems of any kind.

Best of luck,
dave
  
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stevens52
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Re: An inheritance and a blown primer
Reply #2 - Apr 10th, 2005 at 12:29am
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While I don't think your scale is the source of you problem with the 25, I do have to say that it is suspect of contributing to error. Some time ago I noticed erratic behavior with my similar Lyman scale. It was gettting a little age on it so I replaced it with a similarly aged but less used scale belonging to my brother.Same erratic behaviors. I'd challenge you to test the scale against itself. I found I could weigh the same series of powder charges or bullets and get different weights. Evidently they do wear and can become less than reliable.
  
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Dale53
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Re: An inheritance and a blown primer
Reply #3 - Apr 10th, 2005 at 6:42pm
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Regarding erratic readings of scales. It is easy to get dirt in the "ways" of the scale. This is the area that the beam pivots on. Careful examination and cleaning will solve that. Over the years the knife edges of the pivots connected to the balance beam may develop burrs. Careful stoning of the surfaces of the knife edges will take care of that. I have even seen the ends of the "knives" cut a burr into the sides of the pivot area (it is soft aluminum on many scales). This can also inhibit free movement. It is also common to have a "bounced" grain of powder get into the pivot area. That can easily cause erroneous readings.

Of course, the scale should be leveled.

Regarding pistol primers. Small rifle primers are the same depth (height) as the rifle primers. It is only large rifle primers that have different dimensions than their pistol counterpoints.

Pistol primers may have softer/thinner cups compared to rifle primers but any pistol primer intended for the .357 magnum should be sufficient for the pressure of any proper 25/20 load. .357 magnum loads can be up to 40,000 psi.

I have found Remington 6 1/2 primers to work well with both 25/20 and .22 Hornet cases. They are reported to be milder than the Remington 7 1/2's/ However, I have never had a problem with pistol primers in small rifle primer pockets.

FWIW as YMMV

Dale
  
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Joe_S
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Re: An inheritance and a blown primer
Reply #4 - Apr 11th, 2005 at 9:36pm
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This thread caught my attention because I had a blown primer in an 1875 45-70 Sharps replica, and got a face full of powder and bits of the primer. Not a pretty sight, but thankfully I had my glasses on, so no permanent harm done. At any rate, a friend of mine just bought a replica Hi Wall, and I noticed that the rear of the firing pin appears to protrude out the rear of the breechblock, which is necessary of course so the hammer can hit it, but wouldnt that allow gas to flow directly into the shooter's face? I had a gas block installed on both of my Sharps rifles after the incident, but you cant do that on a Hi-Wall or Low Wall. Apparently, Waterman didnt have the gasses come back at him, why not?  Thanks,Joe S
  
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waterman
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Re: An inheritance and a blown primer
Reply #5 - Apr 16th, 2005 at 12:55am
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No, the gasses did not come back into my face.  They squirted out the bottom of the action, like a jet of smoke.  I called it a blown primer, but when I looked at the case head, it seems the gas came back through the flash hole and went around the primer, squirted against the front of the breech block and travelled down to reach the outside.  The primer itself was not ruptured.  I don't know exactly what you call that.  Some sort of failure to seal in the primer pocket.  I forgot to take my universal decapping tong tool to the motel this week.  Next week, I'll get a look at the primer pocket.

The whole thing bothered me because this is an expensive rifle (subject of an article in SSRJ a year or more ago) and it has already been damaged by a case head separation.

I used an old Ideal tong tool for seating the primers.  Is that an OK practice?  I have one of those Lee primer seating tools where you press the primer in with a thumb lever.  I always liked them because you can feel the primer seat.  Is there anything wrong with those?

Richard aka waterman
  
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waterman
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Re: An inheritance and a blown primer
Reply #6 - May 3rd, 2005 at 2:51pm
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This week, I remembered all the reloading stuff for my business travel kit.  I looked at all the fired pistol primers in the .25-20 Repeater cases under the magnifying glass (old eyes, as I am sure some will understand).  Yep.  All of them had been pushed back against the breechblock.  The one blown primer was backed out of the primer pocket a bit.  So that is the end of small pistol primers in the .25-20 Repeater.  I note that in 1937, Sharpe wrote "In order to shorten the case and still have a semblance of power, the case has an abrupt bottle-neck, thus creating high pressures without achieving reasonable results."  I have used small pistol primers in my .32-20 low wall for years and never experienced anything like this.  Also tried them in my .25-20 SS.  The Stevens 44 will not reliably ignite rifle primers.
  
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ssdave
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Re: An inheritance and a blown primer
Reply #7 - May 4th, 2005 at 12:55am
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Waterman,

I'll conjecture a bit here.  

I think that the load you have is relatively mild.  Primers will sometimes back out with low pressure loads, as there's not enough pressure to push the case back firmly against the breechblock, as the grip of the case on the chamber walls holds it forward.  The small pistol primers may also be the culprit, as the thinner walls of a pistol primer might not put as much spring tension on the primer pocket walls to hold them in until ignition pressure forces the primer skirt against the primer pocket.  Low case pressure also might not be enough to expand the primer firmly against the pocket and effectively seal the gases.  I had this problem with reduced loads in a .308 once.  The case heads would get smoked black from the primer leakage.

Going to rifle primers might fix this.  Increasing the pressure slightly might fix it also, but you will need to cross reference the powder you use against reloading manuals to find out for sure that it is acceptable.

What sharpe said in 1937 might have been true then, but with todays powders, I don't think that is a fair statement.  I have found the .25-20 repeater to be a easy cartridge to load for, and I use case full  and even compressed loads of appropriate powders with no problems.  My rifle is an original winchester low wall. I'm in the midst of a move for a new career now and don't have access to my records to advise you more, so I won't give my loads from memory.  However, I believe that the case shoulder makes for more uniform combustion, not unpredictable pressures.  

Best of luck,
dave



« Last Edit: May 4th, 2005 at 1:01am by ssdave »  
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