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leadball
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Pope  Barrels
Aug 26th, 2004 at 4:45pm
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  Question=  did Harry Pope bore his own barrels--we know that he reamed and rifled his barrels but did he bore [drill] them.    leadball
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Pope  Barrels
Reply #1 - Aug 26th, 2004 at 6:20pm
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According to "The Story of Pope's Barrels" by Ray Smith, Pope did definitely drill his own barrels.
P. 87-
"Pope had the skill to drill his barrel blanks very accurately from breech to muzzle. For this he used a special barrel drill, sometimes termed a "nut bore" by the old timers, so the drill emerged from the muzzle scarcely a thousandth of an inch off center."
From what I've read of Pope, nobody could have drilled a barrel blank of acceptable quality (to him)anyway. He was such a stickler for perfection, that he would have sent most of them back.
  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Pope  Barrels
Reply #2 - Aug 27th, 2004 at 11:15pm
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I also seem to remember reading (possibly in Campbell's books) that he purchased drilled, but unrifled, barrel blanks--from winchester I think--then reamed and rifled them.  Its a vague and possibly inaccurate memory, but there was something about the quality of the win. barrels he liked, whether it was straightness, alloy consistancy, or simply price, I don't recall.
dws
  

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Green_Frog
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Re: Pope  Barrels
Reply #3 - Aug 28th, 2004 at 5:50pm
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DWS, I think you are right about him buying some pre-bored barrels, in fact, there is at least one reference in the Winchester shop record of him buying a complete rifle with the barrel bored but unrifled.  I think it was a matter of him being able to bore them himself, but why bother?  The final reaming and after was where his precision work was different from the factory jobs. Smiley

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Re: Pope  Barrels
Reply #4 - Aug 29th, 2004 at 8:22pm
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Leadball, I own a complete Hartford Pope outfit in 38-55. complete with False Muzzle and all the bells and whistles. It is stamped on the outside of the Barrel 38-55. I expected when I removed the forend to see 32-40 or some other small caliber stamped underneath. But it is also stamped .38 under there. When I lettered the  Rifle at Buffalo Bill Museum the letter states "shipped ***1897  as a .38 Bore" I forget the month & day dates right now. Pope had a really good relationship with Winchester and early on I suspect he did not have or was not setup to do the first deep hole drilling operation. But he was certainly able to take a drilled barrel and set it up and finish ream and rifle it. Back then gunsmiths were all setup for resetting and reboring barrels as there was a lot of it. When you look at the history of Schoyen and Zischang you will also see many instances of them reboring up to larger calibers because it was requested by the customer for one reason or another. I do know that later he was drilling and making barrels right from scratch. But initially he may have had to have barrels with a hole already in them. Regards, FITZ.
  

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marlinguy
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Re: Pope  Barrels
Reply #5 - Aug 29th, 2004 at 10:40pm
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Many of the famous barrel makers like Pope, Zischang, and Schoyen preferred "seasoned" barrels. They often bored and rifled barrels for customers in smaller calibers than the final caliber. The customer would shoot the barrel for a year or so, and then return them for the final boring and rifling. I read somewhere that they all felt this produced the highest quality barrels for accuracy work.
I also read that Pope bought some barrels from Winchester, but I don't think all his barrels came from Winchester.
  
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QuestionableMaynard8130
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Re: Pope  Barrels
Reply #6 - Aug 29th, 2004 at 11:07pm
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I guess they liked 'em "fire-lapped" with all the stressesr relieved by shooting them out.
  

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Re: Pope  Barrels
Reply #7 - Aug 30th, 2004 at 9:07pm
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DW, I don't think it was a matter of fire LAPPING so much as the staability that came from having the barrel drilled and then pounded from the inside for hundreds or thousands of shots.  I think they felt that this sort of stress relieved and reforged the steel so that when rebored it would be stable and longer lasting.  I remember a tale of an old barrel being found on a construction site and someone, perhaps Rowland, having it bored out to the next "available" size to make a competition barrel...I think it ended up a .39-55.   Undecided

GF Smiley
  
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JDSteele
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Re: Pope  Barrels
Reply #8 - Aug 30th, 2004 at 11:17pm
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This 'seasoning' of barrels is spoken of occasionally in some of the 19th century writings but wasn't mentioned much (to my limited knowledge) after the first few years of the 20th. It occurred to me that just possibly the well-known practice of seasoning cast iron for a year or two before machining might have had some influence upon their thinking. Remember this was back in the infancy of the development of steel as we know it today, the basic process was invented in the 1850s and folks were still experimenting with things like cast steel and malleable iron etc.

Possibly some of the 'steel' of those days DID respond favorably to the seasoning, or possibly it was wishful thinking, still thinking inside the box as it were. Interesting, always something new to learn.
ttfn, Joe
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Pope  Barrels
Reply #9 - Aug 30th, 2004 at 11:25pm
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I don't know if it worked either, but I do know Pope corresponded with a couple of gunsmiths on a regular basis, and from the transcripts, it seemed that he believed this made a better barrel.
I also heard that CW Rowland, the famous target shooter, once discovered a length of steel round stock unearthed during an excavation. He supposedly jumped into the hole and retrieved it, thinking it would be better steel, having been buried. Burying steel to temper it, was one of the early methods used by the Roman artisans.
Rowland took the steel to George Schoyen, who looked it over and somehow confirmed that it was of good quality. He then made a barrel for Rowland from the chunk of steel, which was one of Rowland's favorite barrels.
  
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Asst
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Re: Pope  Barrels
Reply #10 - Aug 31st, 2004 at 7:14am
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We havea an old muzzleloader barrel maker that lives near me, he always used car axles for his blanks, I think he prefered a particular manufacturer, but I can't remember what one.

He would have a supply of these "blanks" that he would connect  together and drag behind his tractor as he or his son preped a field for planting.

There was an amount of time he did this for each batch.
He thought it made a difference.
He stopped making barrels long ago due to age and liability crap.

  
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waterman
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Re: Pope  Barrels
Reply #11 - Sep 4th, 2004 at 1:22am
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A gunsmith (recently retired) in my neighborhood often spoke of burying rifle barrels for 5 or 10 years.  He also spoke of burying rifle stock blanks.  I always thought those were just 2 of his goofy ideas.  He had lots of others.  Burying stock blanks seems an exercise in feeding termites.  But I have long been told that rebored barrels often shoot better than similar barrels not rebored, and I can buy into the idea that shooting them hammers out all the stresses from the inside out.
  
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JDSteele
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Re: Pope  Barrels
Reply #12 - Sep 4th, 2004 at 5:12pm
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Re burying stock blanks, it IS an excercise in feeding termites.

However I can attest from bitter personal experience that it is a VERY good idea to let a supposedly completely dry but highly figured blank season for at least two years before profiling to general shape, and then let it sit another two years before final inletting & finishing. Even after all that seasoning time I have a one-piece stock that warped upon being  kept in the drying cabinet for the stock finish to dry.

I believe this was due to a too-high temp in the cabinet combined with swirling gnarly figure in the forearm combined with wide swings in humidity in my geographical area, but the fact remains that it warped & remains warped to this day. Caused me to use a Dutchman joint which I despise, but I despise inletting gaps even more.

Re burying rifle barrels, I already gave my ideas on that.

Re barrels being more accurate after reboring, I believe that with modern 20th century steels it depends much more upon the expertise of the reborer rather than upon the assumption that the barrel has been stress-relieved by shooting. Most cut-rifled barrels have no stresses anyway, at least not any stresses that haven't already been relieved by the usual heat-treatment of alloy steel. All the cut-rifle barrelmakers I know tell me that they never stress-relieve AFTER the machining since the stress relief has already been done and the machining imparts no additional stresses at all.

I believe it's safe to say that a rebore by Pope or Schoyen or Zischang or similar or most modern reborers would have necessarily been done with more expertise than the original barrelmaker. So of course the rebore would shoot better IMO since most reborers are better workmen than the usual original mass-production factory makers.
JMO but the burying makes a good story anyway, Joe
  
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