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Re: How accurate is good enough? (Read 19756 times)

Corky Full Member Offline Posts: 119 Location: Land O Lakes, FL Joined: Apr 16^th, 2004	Re: How accurate is good enough? Jul 3^rd, 2004 at 7:49am	Print Post
	I stop tinkering at 1/2 MOA. So far, I have never stopped making changes!


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40_Rod Frequent Elocutionist Offline Extremism in the persuit of accuracy is not a vice Posts: 4285 Location: Knoxville, TN Joined: Apr 20^th, 2004	Re: How accurate is good enough? Reply #1 - Jul 3^rd, 2004 at 8:19am	Print Post
	My personal goal is a 10 shot group that measures .322. subtract ous the .320 groove diameter. Thats what I am shooting for. 40 Rod


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PETE Ex Member	Re: How accurate is good enough? Reply #2 - Jul 3^rd, 2004 at 9:32am	Print Post
	MP, Naturally you want the best accuracy you can get as previous posts indicate. But in reality it doesn't take a 1/2" gun to win. MOA on the ASSRA targets will mean you will shoot well inside the 24 ring at 100 & 200 yds. With the law of averages at work you will shoot quite a bit better than 240. If your gun will shoot, consistently 245 or better, say MOA, you will win your fair share of matches. This of course would apply to score matches. Group matches are another thing and will pretty well require a gun that will shoot well under MOA. At our club, so far this year, a group a little over .600" is the best posted at 100 yds. Which brings up an interesting point.... Why, if a gun will average 1/2 MOA, don't we see more 250's shot? Should be an easy task for such a gun. But we've had only one shot so far this summer at the local club! About the best I can figure is that you can place your group anywhere you want on the target, whereas a score target you have to put that "group" in a certain place on that target. Apparently something that's harder to do. PETE


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Long_Rifle_101 Ex Member	Re: How accurate is good enough? Reply #3 - Jul 3^rd, 2004 at 10:30am	Print Post
	Hello MP, I'm glad you asked that question. One thing I enjoy most about BPCR is that I shoot ( things ) instead of groups and scores on paper targets. I think the discipline of shooting with cross-sticks is a challange in itself. Having said that, I strive to hold a 4 inch group at 450 yards with a 45-90. a 2 inch group at 200 yards with a 38-55, and a 1 inch group at 100 yards with a 38 ballard long. When I shot BR schuetzen with a 32-40, breech-seat, and smoke less, I shot under 1 inch at 100 yards, but I gave it up in favor of BPCR. Long Rifle


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40_Rod Frequent Elocutionist Offline Extremism in the persuit of accuracy is not a vice Posts: 4285 Location: Knoxville, TN Joined: Apr 20^th, 2004	Re: How accurate is good enough? Reply #4 - Jul 4^th, 2004 at 9:30am	Print Post
	Pete There are definatly different aproaches in the shooting group as opposed to score targets. I find when I shoot only score targets my groups suffer and vise versa. I found that I can do both but can only do one well. 40 Rod


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ken_hurst Ex Member	Re: How accurate is good enough? Reply #5 - Jul 4^th, 2004 at 10:00am	Print Post
	I'm just happy when I can get the chance to shoot . And, when I get to the range and find that this time I brought the correct ammo so the rifle will go BOOM. Ken


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boats Frequent Elocutionist Offline Posts: 7478 Location: Virginia Joined: Apr 23^rd, 2004	Re: How accurate is good enough? Reply #6 - Jul 4^th, 2004 at 10:50am	Print Post
	MP For offhand shooting 1 MOA is what you need. Smaller would be better but your eye can see about 1 MOA through a scope or iron sight. That is not to say you can hold 1 MOA offhand but when you let the trigger off your eye can see the place it should strike to about a MOA. When you go to the spotter scope and look for the hole it should be right were you expected it to be, If for example your rifle shoots to 4 moa when you spot the hole you cannot make any decesions on sight setting for wind or tune your positon etc because of the large potential varance in strike and what you saw when breaking the shot. Even 2 moa makes you less than sure when adjusting. On the other hand the difference in a 1 moa rifle and 1/2 moa rifle is impossable to see from offhand.. Of course bench is completly different and more precise Boats


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PETE Ex Member	Re: How accurate is good enough? Reply #7 - Jul 4^th, 2004 at 7:01pm	Print Post
	40_Rod, You said a mouthful there. What I said about scores and groups being so different was said mostly with tongue firmly planted in cheek. Shooting groups at 200 yds. is something I've never developed the patience for, and I'm not much better at shooting scores. Waiting out conditions, or holding off.... especially the former is not my forte. Altho I do shoot a lot of score targets my heart is mostly for offhand, which I wish I shot a lot better than I do. PETE


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PETE Ex Member	Re: How accurate is good enough? Reply #8 - Jul 4^th, 2004 at 7:13pm	Print Post
	MP, Well, if you want to know what's happening in the 21st century as far as Schuetzen goes, I'd recommend Charles Dell & Wayne Schwartz's book "The Modern Schuetzen Rifle", 2nd edition, if you don't already have it. They cover just about anything you'd want to know about what's considered the way to do it today. Sounds like you and I started fooling with the old guns about the same time. I'm sure glad we don't have to go back to shooting some of those actions we played with then. Stevens 44's and especially cast Ballards with cracks in them. Friend had a cast Ballard come apart on him, and I don't know how many links I made for 44's while trying to use them with calibers they weren't really made for. PETE


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PETE Ex Member	Re: How accurate is good enough? Reply #9 - Jul 4^th, 2004 at 7:18pm	Print Post
	MP, By the way.... The picture of your rifle isn't coming thru on the left side of your messages. Do you have the right address to a web site or server where it can be found by the forums program? You got my curiosity up as to what it looks like. PETE


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PETE Ex Member	Re: How accurate is good enough? Reply #10 - Jul 4^th, 2004 at 10:14pm	Print Post
	MP, The hosting site must be back up as your rifle shows up nicely now. Nice rifle! Know what you mean about the 44 1/2's firing pin. Just got done making one for mine. Have it set up now so it's only about a 1/2 hours job making a new "point" which I just epoxy in. I figure that the angle of the firing pin is to steep, but that's just a guess on my part. You know anything about it? Agree about the number of people you could get answers from back in "the old days". I corresponded for about two years with Claude Roderick until his death. Fascinating person to write to and got many tips from him. Also Larry Thompson and Jim Horton got me thru a few hard spots. But probably the biggest thing was the advent of the internet. I really wish it would have been around when we first started as I think it would have saved a lot of trouble. I think a lot of the younger guys who don't know what it was like before the net really appreciate the expertise available at the touch of the keyboard. PETE PETE
	« Last Edit: Jul 4^th, 2004 at 10:22pm by »

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PETE Ex Member	Re: How accurate is good enough? Reply #11 - Jul 5^th, 2004 at 3:37pm	Print Post
	Mike, Well, looks like your hosting site is off again..... No picture! Again!! Would like to take a look at a bigger picture of it but I think you left me in the dust as to how to get a look at a bigger version. Will have to see if I can figure it out. My cure for the 44 1/2 firing pin was to chuck it up in the lathe, face off all but a small portion of the radius, then drill a hole for a pin just big enuf to slide easily thru the block hole, and then epoxy it in place. I figure it's gonna get busted again as much as I'm using it so want to be able to replace it as easily as possible. Not the most elegant approach but it works. I think a lot of peoples problems is that as the half cock notch wears this allows the hammer not to be set back far enuf as the action is opened and the hammer doesn't allow the pin to retract as the block goes down. Same goes when the block is raised and the pin drags across the face of the cartridge. The trick I've found for this problem is to make sure when your breech block is closed on a cartridge that the hammer is not resting on the pin when it's all the way forward against the primer. When it gets to the point where wear won't allow this clearance and still fire the gun then it'll be time to shim/weld up the half cock notch. Haven't had to have that done yet. Yep. Claude was very patient with us "newbies". He was a great believer of adjusting the temper of your lube for the different temperatures. Being basically the lazy sort I never tried this altho I still have a mimeographed copy of his lube formula and the ratios for different temp.'s. Have you? I agree that there is a lot of info on the net. The big problem for the newbie is who to believe! I don't get to excited about, as you called them, "Nom De Nets", (love it) altho I can't see the reasoning behind them. But, I figure if people are happy with them who am I to complain. I will insist tho that if someone wants to email me personally that they do me the courtesy of giving me their real names. I'm sure most of the people on here know my real name since I've been on the shooting Lists/Forums since Methuselah was a youngster. But in case you haven't it's Pete Mink and I live in central Iowa...... or as Brent calls it "flyover country". PETE


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Green_Frog Frequent Elocutionist Offline "It ain't easy being green" ASSRA Life #281 Posts: 3914 Location: Lynchburg, VA Joined: Apr 18^th, 2004	Re: How accurate is good enough? Reply #12 - Jul 5^th, 2004 at 5:13pm	Print Post
	Hey MP/Mike! It's good to note you are back amongst us. I hadn't "chatted" with you since the old Shooters.com days. I'm almost finished packing to take off for Indiana and the July doin's at the ASSRA range. I, too wonder sometimes about the claims for accuracy, experience, etc that some posters make, especially when such information is on the verge of opposite some of my own experience. Sometimes, I think it may just be that what they mean doesn't quite make it onto the screen here in VA, but other times, it just seems that somebody is blowing smoke. Anyway, the "Nom De Nets" problem has gotten a little backwards for me. When our national schuetzenmeister, Jim Borton, met my parents he referred to them as "Mr. and Mrs. Frog." Sometimes I don't think I even HAVE a real name any more! Anyway, Jim sat at the bench next to me last weekend and put the advice I had been getting into real terms so I HAD to do things right. Now if I can just tighten up the loose nut on the buttstock! All for now, but regards to all and I hope to see many of you @ Beeson's Range, Etna Green this week! Charlie Shaeff the Green Frog


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40_Rod Frequent Elocutionist Offline Extremism in the persuit of accuracy is not a vice Posts: 4285 Location: Knoxville, TN Joined: Apr 20^th, 2004	Re: How accurate is good enough? Reply #13 - Jul 5^th, 2004 at 5:27pm	Print Post
	Hey Green Frog I got your lube die done. now if I can just remember to bring it 40 Rod


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ken_hurst Ex Member	Re: How accurate is good enough? Reply #14 - Jul 5^th, 2004 at 5:33pm	Print Post
	Hey Froggy & Pete. I just talked to Steve this morning and he is even more encouraged to start programing the set triggers for Win. He said he would start the close coupled one first and that I and all were to be patient with him. He has a number of things to figure out re. making the triggers better --- thinks they could use much improvement ! You know how he is about tight tolerances Froggy. Ken


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