As I posted recently in another section, I recently acquired a low wall in .25-20 Repeater.  This is a rebuilt junker.  The barrel is a new one.  I notice in reading a lot of articles written since the 30s that no one seems to be writing in a positive vein about shooting the .25-20 Repeater.  There is nothing wrong with it, I have brass and an old Ideal tool.  But I have also been thinking about having an inch or two cut off the breech end and rechambering to .25-20 SS or even .25-21. I already have a .25-20 SS, so there would be no additional outlay for brass or dies.  I have never messed with a .25-21, but a friend has one and I am quite impressed.  If this was your rifle, what would you do?

Glad I previewed this one.  I typed  "fiend" for "friend".

 Actually there is nothing wrong with the accuracy of the .25/20 WCF. In fact it's one of the "wanna try out one of these days" cartridges for me. You just need the right gun for it... and you have one!

  Most of the articles written about this caliber were about their use in lever guns. Lever guns can be made to shoot but off the shelf they are not really noted for their tack driving accuracy. I think with a little work on your part your Low Wall will shoot very well.

 But, if you decide to set the barrel back and rechamber then I would recommend the .25/21 as the scuttlebutt on it is that it's a more accurate round than the .25/20SS. I own a coupla of the SS's and they are very accurate but in original twist rates are restricted to bullets of less than 80 grs.

 The one thing really going for the .25 WCF is that brass is cheap. .25/21 brass will cost you plenty. Not to mention dies!

PETE

2 packages of Bell .25-20 SS basic brass came my way a couple of years ago.  This was the stuff made in the late 1980s.  Out of 40 cases, 36 survived their first full length resizing.  The other 4 split during the initial sizing.  I loaded up the rest with 5.0 grains Unique and breech-seated an 85 grain bullet.  After the first few split, I tried one with no bullet, just like shooting a blank.  It split also.  then I dumped the powder out of another 2 and fired them with only primers.  They both split.   

I salvaged the powder & wads and took the remaining cases over to my friend's shop.  He heated each one with a gas torch and dumped them into water.  I reloaded them with the same 5 grains of Unique load.  (I shoot a Stevens 44 action stamped 47 EX on the front of the action).  This time they worked OK, groups about 1.5 inches at 100 yds, but I noticed that a primer looked loose.  Then I took the next fired case, put it into my mouth and blew hard.  (OK, that makes me a blowhard. )  But I was able to blow the primer out of the case.  So the heat treating process softened up the heads or somehow increased the primer pocket size.

I have one of those old hand reamers that was intended to cut the crimp out of GI primer pockets.  So I used that to enlarge the primer pockets of the surviving cases (still have 15 or 20) and use large pistol primers.  Seems to work OK, but what a lot of work.  I have about 20 old REM-UMC cases that seem to just keep going.

I also have 40 Bertram .28-30 cases that I have never used.  Do these cases have the same propensity to split?

Ken's right about the Bertram .25/20SS brass. I bought a 100 of them and in 5 firings had a 20% reject rate. Cases would get a 1/2" split thru the body just below the "neck". Then bought a 100 from the old Gaintwist outfit..... the predecessor to RMC. Same thing! Lots of rejects. I then started making my own and have had no problems with them.

  As you mention, the old cases seem to last forever and I'm not sure why, or why mine should last either.

  For you Ken..... Don't worry about the .28/30 cases from RMC. I got a 100 when Dave re-barreled my 44 1/2 to .28/30. I fired them all 6 times with no problems. When I got my breech seater made I went to using one case. One finally gave up from a loose primer pocket after 350 shots, altho I think I could have still used it. I'm on the 2nd one now and it has 240 shots thru it and still going strong.

PETE

Ken,
  I realised what you were saying, but my experience with one RMC's predecessors (GainTwist) and their .25/20SS brass might have lead you, or others, to think I felt the same way about all of RMC's brass. Didn't want that to happen as Dave Casey did a very good job re-barreling my 44 1/2 to .28/30 and fitted the brass to the chamber. One of the added touches was to stamp(?) .28/30 on the barrel in lettering that looks almost identical in size and style to what Stevens put on their guns. Thought that was pretty neat! Shoots pretty good to.  We'll have to get into some of the details on how to get it to shoot with BP when you get your gun ready to go. That 1300 or so rounds I mentioned in my last post was just about how many rounds it took to get it to start shooting well!

PETE

marlinguy,
  Wouldn't mind knowing a solution to this splitting myself. Considering the price per case it would be nice to be able to use them up.

  I tried annealing them past the split area but after that they didn't seem to soften up like other brass does. Got to thinking they might not be cartridge brass so took a few cases of different brands to work and ran them thru the PMI tester. Copying from my notes the Bertram brass came out:

Bertram cases
         CU - 73.15%
         ZN - 26.86%
       PMI determined it to be Cartridge Brass

  So figured that I'd go with some GainTwist brass, but they split just like the Bertram. Had two different lots of those so ran them thru the PMI tester and my notes read like this.

Gaintwist cases
            1st lot                            2nd lot
         CR - 00.78%                   FE - 00.20%
         FE - 00.26%                   CU - 63.39%
         CO - 00.27%                   ZN - 34.34%
         NI - 00.28%                    PB - 02.07%
         CU - 60.35%
         ZN - 33.49%
         PB - 04.57%
  PMI was kind of confused about this material but finally came up with Naval Brass with a question mark behind it. 2nd lot was also determined to be Naval Brass.

  Looks like two different lots of brass were used in the two lots I got.

  To me the question is.... what kind of brass is RMC using now? In my .28/30 cases it is holding up better than expected, but I haven't gotten any SS brass from them to see how they hold up, so when you get some and try them out I'd be interested in how they work for you.

PETE

2520,
  The more I've thought about it in the past I can't think of any reason why the WCF case wouldn't be just as accurate as the SS, and your experience seems to point that way.

  Is your experience just with smokeless, or have you done some work with black to?

  When my gunsmith reads this he is probably gonna rub his hands together in glee.  I've got an extra .25 cal. barrel that can be set back and the SS chamber removed, and when I get done with the .22 spitzer experiment I can put it back on the Low Wall if Ken doesn't come up with an idea of what he wants for those actions he's got.

PETE

Pete:  Sorry I have taken so long to get back to you-I just bought a new computer and it has taken some time to set up.  I have not used black powder loads in my rifle.  My experience has been with smokeless only and with jacketed bullets.  My 44 has a Douglas barrel, full octagon, 24' long and also sports a 12x Unertl scope.  I have played (carefully)  with a couple of different powders-there isn't a whole lot of room here- and several bullets.  My current load is 8 gr of 2400 with either 86 gr FP or 75 grain HP.  The 75's are more accurate.  I have some 60 gr SP and some 78 gr cast but I haven't tried them yet.  Bought a new set of Lyman dies so I can load the cast bullets but have not used them yet.  The 75HP load will shoot .75 groups at 100 yds, the 86 FP hold about an inch.  I am reluctant to try any heavier loads due the the weak action and I have bent the pins once with an overload.  I have about 500 rounds loaded and if you do the math thats just over 1/2 a pound of powder.  I have the only 25-20 Win that I know of in my neck of the woods and my shooting buddys shake their heads at the pipsqueek ammo.  The targets speak for themselves.  I have more accurate rifles but none that are so much fun to shoot (well, maybe one other).  Good luck on your project.  2520