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gnoahhh
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Nifty but a little different Ballard and scope
Yesterday at 3:24pm
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I recently acquired this little jewel and wanted to post a little about it and its scope. First off, it obviously started life as a #2 Ballard, with convertible firing pin. Current barrel length is 21 1/2", caliber .32 (.312 groove diameter, 1/22 twist near as I can tell), chamber is .32 Ballard Extra Extra Long (more on that later). I can't tell if the original Ballard factory barrel was shortened (but I lean toward not), or if a new barrel was fabricated - either way it was a masterful job of creating a half-octagon barrel with wedding band.

Fast-ish twist kind of obviates optimal use of patched round balls. I think it was intended for use with conicals from the get-go.

Came with a false muzzle which I believe to be original, at least the presence of rifling in it which matches the bore leads me to think so. 

Makers name eluded me for a bit, but last night I finally spotted it: W.Billinghurst, as stamped in the ramrod groove milled into the bottom of the barrel.

Condition of the rifle is kind of remarkable for a pre-1880 rifle. (Mr. Billinghurst died in 1880.) The breechblock especially is super nice - the case colors on it are the best I've seen in many a moon, even extended to the interior surfaces. A neat time capsule for sure.

A couple questions I seek "The Hive's" input on: 1) The chambering. It's truly a .32 Ballard Extra long, but with an extra long chamber length on top of that - a lot longer than a .32 X Lg. It matches nothing in my extensive library of cartridge references. What could it be? Mr. Billinghurst's idea of what an optimal chambering should be for use with the black powder of the day + its intended ultimate purpose? Someone in later years having messed with it for some long forgotten reason? Who knows? A paltry supply of old Jamison .25-20 Single Shot BASIC brass I have matches it perfectly, and when used as-is works well to shoot the gun. (Hence my plea in the classifieds a couple days ago for more of the stuff. A dozen and a half pieces of brass will last a goodly while, but not forever.) Regular .25-20SS brass fireformed to fit the chamber will work but it makes for a lot of distance between case mouth and base of muzzle loaded bullet seated as far down as possible, and conversely a long ways for a bullet to travel when fired from a fixed cartridge. I'm even eyeing .223 brass to swage the extra extra long stuff out of, it looks long enough.

Question two, continued anon, as well as pics
« Last Edit: yesterday at 4:31pm by gnoahhh »  
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gnoahhh
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Re: Nifty but a little different Ballard and scope
Reply #1 - yesterday at 3:34pm
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Question 2) The scope. 1/2' diameter, 23 1/2"long. A tiny bit dim but useable, crosshairs crisp. Any ideas who made it? I'm told it might be a Sidel, but if Billinghurst built the gun why would he install someone else's scope on it? I'm leaning toward it beinf a Billinghurst scope. I hope the pics show enough salient features to trigger a Sherlockian response!

Note the small screw head aft of the objective lens on the RH side. I found that it's scant 1/4" travel in its slot was enough to eliminate parallax! Note the full length dovetail on bottom of tube.

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marlinguy
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Re: Nifty but a little different Ballard and scope
Reply #2 - yesterday at 3:36pm
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I never say "never", but a couple things don't jibe with what Marlin did on Ballard rifles. First being the barrel length. Marlin didn't end barrels at .5" lengths for any of their rifles, single shot or repeaters. They were always about 1/8"-3/16" over an even number. Only exception to the even number lengths were the special carbines that had 15" barrels; others were all 2" increments, and none in 20.5" or 22.5" and of course not an odd 21.5"
Next is the wedding band. I've haven't seen a wedding band transition on any Ballard rifle. If it happened it's new to me. Can you tell me if it has a front  sight dovetail, and the measurement  from crown to center of the dovetail cut? Those are pretty specific also, and may also answer whether it's cut down or not.

edit- Didn't see post #2 when I replied, so my further answer is that looks much like an early Malcolm scope and mounts. The forearm and pewter tip work sure aren't like anything I've ever seen on a Ballard.
Really neat Ballard though!
  

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gnoahhh
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Re: Nifty but a little different Ballard and scope
Reply #3 - yesterday at 3:38pm
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That's all. Phew. Sorry for the long windedness!
« Last Edit: yesterday at 4:34pm by gnoahhh »  
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marlinguy
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Re: Nifty but a little different Ballard and scope
Reply #4 - yesterday at 3:43pm
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One more add with the last pictures. Confirms it's either not a Ballard barrel or not factory. Marlin didn't ever offer a false muzzle barrel, so likely this isn't a Ballard barrel at all.
  

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gnoahhh
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Re: Nifty but a little different Ballard and scope
Reply #5 - yesterday at 3:43pm
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marlinguy wrote yesterday at 3:36pm:
I never say "never", but a couple things don't jibe with what Marlin did on Ballard rifles. First being the barrel length. Marlin didn't end barrels at .5" lengths for any of their rifles, single shot or repeaters. They were always about 1/8"-3/16" over an even number. Only exception to the even number lengths were the special carbines that had 15" barrels; others were all 2" increments, and none in 20.5" or 22.5" and of course not an odd 21.5"
Next is the wedding band. I've haven't seen a wedding band transition on any Ballard rifle. If it happened it's new to me. Can you tell me if it has a front  sight dovetail, and the measurement  from crown to center of the dovetail cut? Those are pretty specific also, and may also answer whether it's cut down or not.

edit- Didn't see post #2 when I replied, so my further answer is that looks much like an early Malcolm scope and mounts.


I concur on barrel, Vall. Like I said above, I lean toward it being a Billinghurst custom job. But why the odd short length? Mayhaps it got shortened in the 20th century, but the octagon section matches the forearm length, so, who knows? Perhaps the intent was to create a nifty short squirrel rifle and not a dedicated target gun.

Note the dovetail which currently does duty as a front scope mount.
  
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marlinguy
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Re: Nifty but a little different Ballard and scope
Reply #6 - yesterday at 3:47pm
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It makes sense that the forearm matches the octagon length if he built his own barrel, then he built the forearm to fit it. That goes along with the way both barrel and forearm aren't Marlin's work.
I would bet this was built as a hunting rifle for small game, and he liked having it light and handy to carry for longer periods. Thus the shorter barrel. It's a custom build, and I like it. Obviously done for a special customer's needs, or his own use.
I doubt it got shortened later. Fitting a rifled false muzzle after shortening a barrel would be quite a task unless he shortened it at the chamber end. Then the forearm would have to be shortened an equal amount to keep it matching.
  

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Re: Nifty but a little different Ballard and scope
Reply #7 - yesterday at 3:50pm
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William Billinghurst was a well known maker in the muzzle loader era.  He made every thing from buggy rifles (essentially a pistol with a butt stock) to very heavy "slug guns".  Many of the most sought after are under hammer actions, but he also made rifles with the more common side hammer and even a few revolving chamber rifles.
  

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gnoahhh
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Re: Nifty but a little different Ballard and scope
Reply #8 - yesterday at 4:23pm
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Visual aid showing the difference in length of .25-20 SS BASIC brass which is a perfect length for this chamber versus regular .25-20 SS brass.

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bobw
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Re: Nifty but a little different Ballard and scope
Reply #9 - yesterday at 5:22pm
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Definitely an interesting rifle.  Billinghurst made some nice guns.

I see the forearm is pinned rather than screwed on.  I assume it is pinned through the barrel above the ramrod and not through some kind of special bracket?

Do the serial numbers match, including the stock wood?
Bob
  
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gnoahhh
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Re: Nifty but a little different Ballard and scope
Reply #10 - yesterday at 6:19pm
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bobw wrote yesterday at 5:22pm:
Definitely an interesting rifle.  Billinghurst made some nice guns.

I see the forearm is pinned rather than screwed on.  I assume it is pinned through the barrel above the ramrod and not through some kind of special bracket?

Do the serial numbers match, including the stock wood?
Bob


Forearm is screwed on with a sideways screw that passes through the ramrod appliance just under the bottom barrel flat. Female threads are in an escutcheon in the wood on the far side.

The ramrod capture appliance is nifty in and of itself but I felt I was getting too long winded in my post so I left it out, but here it is now.

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Buttstock and butt plate are numbered to the receiver, but can't swear the numbers are factory.
  
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Re: Nifty but a little different Ballard and scope
Reply #11 - yesterday at 6:27pm
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gnoahhh wrote yesterday at 6:19pm:
bobw wrote yesterday at 5:22pm:
Definitely an interesting rifle.  Billinghurst made some nice guns.

I see the forearm is pinned rather than screwed on.  I assume it is pinned through the barrel above the ramrod and not through some kind of special bracket?

Do the serial numbers match, including the stock wood?
Bob


Forearm is screwed on with a sideways screw that passes through the ramrod appliance just under the bottom barrel flat. Female threads are in an escutcheon in the wood on the far side.

The ramrod capture appliance is nifty in and of itself but I felt I was getting too long winded in my post so I left it out, but here it is now.

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Buttstock and butt plate are numbered to the receiver, but can't swear the numbers are factory.


This rifle just keeps getting more interesting!   

That is a neat ramrod holder.  Looked like a pin but the screw is nice.

Can show some pictures of the whole rifle, and of the action and stock.
Bob
  
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gnoahhh
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Re: Nifty but a little different Ballard and scope
Reply #12 - yesterday at 6:57pm
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Can show some pictures of the whole rifle, and of the action and stock.
Bob [/quote]

Thy wish is my command!

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Re: Nifty but a little different Ballard and scope
Reply #13 - yesterday at 8:58pm
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Gary, as you said, nifty!
  
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bobw
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Re: Nifty but a little different Ballard and scope
Reply #14 - yesterday at 9:56pm
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Vall and others would be better to say, but that looks like a Ballard stock and buttplate to me.
Bob
  
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