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Joe_S
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"smokeless" powder?
Yesterday at 7:18pm
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Hello everyone,

In reading World War Two history it is often stated that American troops had the disadvantage of not having "smokeless" powder in their small arms ammunition, with the result that the muzzle flash and smoke would give their positions away, and that the Japanese and Germans did not have that problem. I am sure that we did not use Black rifle powder for our small arms, and that IMR powders were in wide use for most small arms, all of which was smokeless as the term is commonly used today. Does anyone know what was meant by the term "smokeless" in this context and what it was about that powder that we used which would produce more smoke and muzzle flash than a German 8
x 57 or Japanese Arisaka round? The most recent book in which I read this is "The Deadly Brotherhood" by John McManus.
Thanks!
Joe S
  
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TomKlinger
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Re: "smokeless" powder?
Reply #1 - yesterday at 8:11pm
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Smoke less……..
Less than black powder..😁



Tom Klinger
  
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1Hawkeye
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Re: "smokeless" powder?
Reply #2 - yesterday at 8:44pm
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Pulp fiction, there stuff flashed just like ours did but none of it smoked.
  
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bpjack
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Re: "smokeless" powder?
Reply #3 - yesterday at 8:47pm
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A quick Google query returned this.
Quote:
Both the primary US cartridge (the .30-06 Springfield) and the standard German cartridge (the 8x57mm IS / 8mm Mauser) used modern smokeless powders, which burned cleanly and produced minimal smoke.The main reasons why any differences in smoke would have been negligible on the battlefield include:Smokeless Powder Technology: By WWII, both militaries relied on highly advanced nitrocellulose-based smokeless propellants. This technology had largely eliminated the heavy white and grey clouds that characterized older black powder firearms from the 19th century.Flash Suppressants: The chemical composition of the gunpowder used by both nations was largely standardized. Neither standard-issue rifle round contained excessive smoke-producing fillers, resulting in a similar, near-smokeless discharge upon firing.Exceptions for Specialized Ammunition: While standard ball rounds for both the US M1 Garand/Springfield and the German Karabiner 98k were clean, both sides utilized specialized ammunition that produced distinct signatures. For instance, both nations used tracer rounds (which left a visible chemical trail to mark targets) and smoke rounds (specifically designed to generate heavy, obscuring, or signaling smoke), but these were used for entirely different tactical purposes.Ultimately, any perceived differences in smoke on the battlefield usually came down to the rate of fire—the US M1 Garand was a semi-automatic rifle capable of firing 8 rounds in quick succession, while the German primary infantry rifle was a bolt-action—rather than a difference in the chemical composition of the powder


I had read that this was an issue in Cuba during the Spanish American war when the US still used black powder in Trapdoors.
  

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craigster
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Re: "smokeless" powder?
Reply #4 - yesterday at 10:25pm
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John McManus has been/is misinformed.
« Last Edit: yesterday at 10:35pm by craigster »  
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wesg
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Re: "smokeless" powder?
Reply #5 - yesterday at 11:29pm
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WW 2????

Smokeless powder... nitro cellulose... was all of us had.. 

Even WW 1 ...

Both... corrosive primers ...

Maybe Korean War as well.

My only 'experience' with Vietnam ... tales from a friend.
  
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waterman
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Re: "smokeless" powder?
Reply #6 - Today at 3:48am
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The 6.5 x 50.5 mm Japanese service cartridge was relatively flashless when fired from the long barreled Arisaka infantry rifle.  Small bore, relatively light powder charge, and a long barrel were all factors.  Almost everything else had a visible flash when fired in dim light.
  
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notlwonk
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Re: "smokeless" powder?
Reply #7 - Today at 7:46am
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I've seen some really impressive fire balls when shooting china made AR ammo. I don't know if the powder they use in their military ammo is the same as exported stuff.
  
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