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Very Hot Topic (More than 25 Replies) ASSRA and ISSA There Is Strength In Numbers (Read 2064 times)
dave_j
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Re: ASSRA and ISSA There Is Strength In Numbers
Reply #30 - Apr 23rd, 2026 at 2:24am
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the little things like scoring, targets, events can be worked out (with a little cooperation). 
The biggest (IMO) obstacle gets down to dollars and cents. It is hard to convince the Boss you need to spend $$ on a 100 year old relic when the pantry is empty and kids need new shoes. In todays uncertain economy there are a lot of folks just getting by.
As far as availability of suitable firearms that should be taken care of as soon as Jack's hoard of Hi walls and Ballards hit the market Grin      dave
  

ah heck  AA#9,4227,300MP, as long as it goes bang
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Joe_S
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Re: ASSRA and ISSA There Is Strength In Numbers
Reply #31 - Apr 23rd, 2026 at 7:33am
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What exactly would be the benefit of merging the two associations? We would still have the same number of shooters. There will be a number of malcontents on both sides who will be unhappy with the concessions that were made and a certain amount of animosity will linger. I fail to see any benefit to this. 
Furthermore, I think there is some benefit to having the two separate groups. You can come and go as you please and shoot both ways, shoulder to shoulder or re-entry as you please. 

We all seem to agree that we need more shooters and that there is a financial obstacle to getting started.  I respectfully suggest that we close ranks and work on those two issues.
I dont remember the actual catch words, but it goes something like this, "advertising has to be consistent and persistent". Right now we have neither. We are not likely to get a movie like Quigly Down Under to spark interest in single shots, so we need another approach. Social Media is the rage these days and I know nothing about it and dont want to know, but there has to be someone in our ranks that can come up with some ideas. All kinds of crazy things get passed around on social media, we need to get something off the ground. We should prepare a general format so that we can convey the ideas and concepts we want to convey, so that the message is consistent. 
If we can manage it, some articles in American Rifleman or other old fashioned print media would help, along with some exposure on "Wednesday Night at the Range" on the Outdoor Channel. 
For many years, I have been setting up at gun shows. For the last several years, I have set up a simple "Schuetzenfest " display with photos, a few rifles and some of our special accoutrements such as breech seaters, molds and barrel clamps. 
We get well over two thousand walk ins on a Saturday, and I get about ten or 15 who stop and ask questions, and usually two or three to take membership applications. Not sure how many follow through but you have to plant the seed and hope it grows. 
Right now, if we had four or five new shooters at either of the two Schuetzenfests I regularly attend, they might be on a waiting list, so finding new ranges and clubs to sponsor events is another thing we need to do. 
It costs me about $40 to rent a table, and I do it three times per year. I enjoy being at the show for the social interaction with like minded people, so the table rent is not an obstacle for me. 
To be continued..
Joe S
  
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Joe_S
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Re: ASSRA and ISSA There Is Strength In Numbers
Reply #32 - Apr 23rd, 2026 at 7:48am
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I ran out of space on the above post...
As far as the cost of entry is concerned, a person does NOT have to buy an expensive antique rifle get started. I realize there is a lot of prejudice on this group against imported rifles, but that's how I got started and I have been 100% satisfied with my imported rifles which I am still shooting in competition. My first was a Sile Sharps which I bought brand new for about $200. Then I got a Garret Sharps with the set triggers for $350 and shot that rifle in regional competition for over ten years. Then I got a Uberti High Wall for about $1,000 which I have been shooting ever since. They have their issues, no doubt, but nothing that cant be dealt with and the accuracy is more than adequate. Furthermore, I just received the latest American Rifleman which has a section on all the new rifles coming out this year. Not many that are listed for under $1,000 and many are well over $1,500. If I remember correctly there was a high wall listed on this forum recently for under $1,500 and there are a lot more Schuetzen rifles being sold now as a result of people aging out and not many people standing in line to buy them up. 
Once someone gets inspired by advertising to get into the sport, they can start with a trapdoor or sharps ( in a "big bore" category) without having to invest a fortune, and get something more suitable as they can afford it. But we need to plant the seed first. 
I suggest we form a committee with members from both groups to meet quarterly by zoom to put a format together to generate interest in the sport with simple gun show displays , some videos to distribute on social media, and some articles in the various print media and on TV. 
If I can figure out how to do zoom from home, I will be happy to participate. Most eight year old kids can put a video on youtube, we should be able to do something.
Joe S.
  
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Re: ASSRA and ISSA There Is Strength In Numbers
Reply #33 - Apr 24th, 2026 at 8:54pm
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I explained my arguments on enticing new shooters into the sport above. Those of us that own houses we purchased in the $35-60K range before they hit the $500K to one million selling price are probably out of touch on just how tough it is for the younger generations to get into the game, let alone get a couple days with the kids and act like a family. 

One Mom and Dad having to hold down 8 to 12 hour jobs, Day Care costs to handle the kids, two cars and insurance, health care through the roof I could go on for pages. Then trying to entice a probable younger shooter into the game by saying things like you can start off with a crappie gun, a rifle with 10# plus trigger think Trapdoor. Trust me there is no gun that will kill a starting competitor's desire faster than one with a heavy unmanageable  trigger and poor sights.
  
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Re: ASSRA and ISSA There Is Strength In Numbers
Reply #34 - Apr 25th, 2026 at 12:59pm
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Ok, there are successful models, as I described to get the interest that it takes to recruit new shooters and collectors. Yes, it takes money to do. That's where merging to two organizations might help. You can't wish your way to success!

The two organizations could merge or team up and make a commitment to invest in the resources it takes to be successful or die a slow death. Maybe not so slow, even.

Think of it as a business  that has to make a profit. The profit being, in this case, the preservation of the sport and and these rifles we love so much.

How do businesses became successful? They spend as much as possible on advertising and promotion!

Raise funds, threw donations, to a dedicated fund for only the promotion of single shots. Create that fund and ask for donations in money or rifles to be sold or given as prizes. Willing one or more rifles to that fund would be one way. I would commit to doing that one if, said fund was established. Books, too. To be sold on the market.

One of the most important things, is to find a promoter or two, like the Coors event had. I can't remember his name and many didn't like him but, he helped, a lot!

One of the things that is holding success up, is in the saying "You can lead a horse to water but, you can't make him drink"
  

ASSRA Member #696, ISSA Member #339
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Re: ASSRA and ISSA There Is Strength In Numbers
Reply #35 - Apr 25th, 2026 at 3:31pm
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If you really want to bring schuetzen back to the popularity it had before the first world war you need the aspect of the game that drew spectators and created real prize money: gambling.

You don't need a sponsor, you need a casino.
  

I refuse to spend my life worrying about what I eat. There is no pleasure worth foregoing just for an extra 3 years in the geriatric ward. John Mortimer
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Re: ASSRA and ISSA There Is Strength In Numbers
Reply #36 - Apr 25th, 2026 at 3:32pm
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What would it take to start a YouTube channel?
We could upload a video from an Assra or Issa match like they show on Shooting USA and update it periodically with informative videos on various aspects of the Schuetzenfest sport and matches throughout the year
It would be interesting to see how many followers we would have 
Joe S
  
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Re: ASSRA and ISSA There Is Strength In Numbers
Reply #37 - Apr 25th, 2026 at 5:16pm
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Joe_S
A YouTube page is a GREAT idea. If there is a member with the talent of Joe Dobrzynsik (our Journal editor) who is willing to step up to run it, we'd be in business. 
I've tried to shoot photos and video at matches but always run into the problem of just barely having time to finish a match, let alone spending time to shoot worthwhile photos and video. In order to get good video and photos a person would have to not be a match participant.
So . . . if anyone knows a budding videographer/Photographer with an interest in shooting and editing Schuetzen matches, please, please bring that person along to a match!
  

Randy W
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There are indeed two Americas. Simply put, it is not the haves and have nots. The two Americans are in reality divided into those who do and those who don't.
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Re: ASSRA and ISSA There Is Strength In Numbers
Reply #38 - Apr 25th, 2026 at 7:45pm
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Heritage is a wonderful thing in my very antiquated opinion, but why should the next (or thereafter) generation care about Schuetzen shooting? They have “stuff” I didn’t have that gleans their interest. “WE have a duty” to keep Schuetzen going? No. It’s gone. We don’t stand on our hind legs like men and shoot in front of crowds (who care) and see every shot. I commend, envy and shower honor of the few of you that do shoot thus, but even you don’t draw a crowd and a purse worthy of a train ride across half the country. The heritage we shout about perpetuating has passed into history. Finis!
Now, I still enjoy arriving at a match and shuffling over to a bench where I break out a truckload of paraphernalia including a comfortable shooting stool. I enjoy most of the fellow codgers and  many of the somewhat younger miscreants that wander in with very disparate SingleShot rifles, but is this Schuetzen as depicted regularly in the pages of the Journal? Hardly! It’s as different as the manners of my grandparents from the manners of my grandchildren. 
To all of you who have participated in this thread, I wish you a fine and enjoyable day at the next match you attend.
  
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Re: ASSRA and ISSA There Is Strength In Numbers
Reply #39 - Apr 25th, 2026 at 10:56pm
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Schuetzen will never be a mainstream shooting discipline. Neither will high power, cowboy action, benchrest, BPCR, muzzleloading, silhouette shooting or anything else. I would like to point out that you cant get into some of the other types of shooting without laying out some cash either, but people find a way to do it. 
People got into highpower, benchrest, or whatever because somewhere, somehow, they were exposed to it and for whatever reason, they decided to look into it and then decided they wanted to try it. 
I wasnt around when ASSRA was founded, but I was around when Coors decided to breathe some life into Schuetzen. I saw the ad in American Rifleman (I think) and realized that my 45-70 Sharps qualified, and loaded up the car and went to my first match. Once I got there I was hooked. If it had not been for the fact that there was an ad in American Rifleman I would never have known about it. I am not sure which came first, but I also bumped into a fellow at our local range who was breech seating a High wall, and so I also had that personal contact. 
I have been going to gun shows since I was a freshman in high school, and setting up regularly. Its not much of a "sacrifice" for me to set up a small Schuetzen display for two days and entertain questions, hand out membership applications, and discuss shooting with the crowd. 
If we did this on a persistent basis across the country, AND had some kind of online presence, (for those who dont go to gun shows) we would get some new shooters.
Whether its worth the effort or not is a matter of personal opinion. We wont know unless and until we try. 
I would also like to point out that we dont need to merge two organizations, have a consensus, or get anyone else's agreement to do this. Just rent a table at a gun show, bring one or two Schuetzen rifles and some bullet molds or whatever and some picture of matches or your best targets or whatever, and talk to people for two days. As a table holder you get in before the public and who knows what you might find. 
I intend to keep doing what I am doing even if the entire world thinks its a dumb idea. If more than three other members can agree on anything else, let me know. 
Its not the sport of Schuetzen that I love, its the people that make it happen, even if we dont agree!
I hope that 50 years from now, people are discussing how to keep Schuetzen going, rather than how to get it started again.
God Bless!
Joe S
  
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RJ-35-40
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Re: ASSRA and ISSA There Is Strength In Numbers
Reply #40 - Apr 26th, 2026 at 12:23pm
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"If we did this on a persistent basis across the country, AND had some kind of online presence, (for those who dont go to gun shows) we would get some new shooters."

Along these lines.................

There is a lot of content of all types on You Tube.
Most produced by people, aka "Influence'ers", have broken the code on 
getting advertisers to sponsor them. They "produce" their videos structured with enthusiasm and entertainment. 

I imagine it's an art form in to itself. 
I have a friend whose daughter is such an individual. While I don't know how much she makes but having a mega sports car, owning a beautiful home in a pricey neighborhood in Cali an one in Baja, flying first class, staying in 5 Star hotels all over the world, she must be doing alright at 20 something.   

Bottom line is she does it all by herself, no staff, no overhead.
First time I became aware of her was when I saw my friend on a You Tube video. Said, hey Ralph, I saw you in a video desecrating (not really) a Lamborgini , When I ask him about it, he said oh yea that's my daughter and her boyfriend. 

Big companies seek her out to produce promos and videos. 

Point is, there are a lot of products that can be featured, not just Rifles, and Powder. 

RSW wrote on Apr 25th, 2026 at 5:16pm:
Joe_S
A YouTube page is a GREAT idea. If there is a member with the talent of Joe Dobrzynsik (our Journal editor) who is willing to step up to run it, we'd be in business. 
I've tried to shoot photos and video at matches but always run into the problem of just barely having time to finish a match, let alone spending time to shoot worthwhile photos and video. In order to get good video and photos a person would have to not be a match participant.
So . . . if anyone knows a budding videographer/Photographer with an interest in shooting and editing Schuetzen matches, please, please bring that person along to a match!

  
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Re: ASSRA and ISSA There Is Strength In Numbers
Reply #41 - Apr 26th, 2026 at 3:50pm
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Joe I won't argue your idea that all of the disciplines you mentioned are never going to be " mainstream " but fact is firearms, hunting and match shooting in any venue is not " mainstream " in this country. So I ask what shotging sport would you consider " mainstream ". I can perhaps think of one and that would be Trap & Skeet with general estimates of between 3 to 4 million recreational shooters. High power, BPRC, and Silhouette are basically limited as few clubs have enough real estate to support the range distance. Cowboy Shooting is still very big with around 120k members and even in NH matches were held once, twice sometimes more a week in decent weather. In Cowboy If you shoot only one gun like a knock-off Colt it's short money, a revolver and Brazilian lever rifle can be done for under $800 depending and a coach shotgun 3 to $400.00 plus western style rig and hat. 

I spent a couple years in Benchrest and it broke my wallet. If Schuetzen is costly then Benchrest can get insane shooting three to four rifles, changing barrels constantly, the opfics game, hundreds of dollars in wind flags often much more and the reloading equipment all transported from match to match in your giant fifth-wheel apartment house behind your dually like new pickup. And some fly to matches of course. 

IPSC and PPC is truly international  and estimates of around 50 to 60K shooters. Bullseye Precision Pistol both Gallery and National courses were estimated in 2000-2015 to be around 25 to 35K. But a friend last year at the SHOT Show said the ammo makers and Shooting Sports group think there may be 75 to 85k shooters now but nobody can put a firm finger on it due to so many small regional clubs. 

So Joe there may not be, or ever have been, a civilian " Mainstream " shooting sport. Even 3 million Trap & Skeet shooters can't compete with 
' Pickle Ball '. So 3 million is basically but 1.3 % of American population aged 18 to 70 years. Of course these statistics can jump any which way if  those incapable or unwilling to handle firearms not to mention including regional laws and restrictions if factored in. No it's unlikely Schuetzen will ever  be as popular as it was a century ago but the numbers show none of the shooting sports making it to those levels again. Even so the Schuetzen game numbers, I can only guess, have fallen off the scale like Musk Ox hunting.  This great shooting discipline absolutely needs an injection of something before it dies of old age, literally.
  
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Re: ASSRA and ISSA There Is Strength In Numbers
Reply #42 - Apr 26th, 2026 at 4:46pm
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If you attend a lot of matches of any kind travel expenses are going to quickly surpass guns and equipment cost. Doesn't matter what type of shooting you do.
  

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Re: ASSRA and ISSA There Is Strength In Numbers
Reply #43 - Apr 26th, 2026 at 5:55pm
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Recently I was perusing through the flash drive that Byron Goff put together of all of the ASSRA Journals from issue 1 up to present. Looking at issues from 30+ years ago I noticed ASSRA members citing we need to recruit the youth. The youth from 30 years ago are now members. Single shot rifles are going to attract few if any teens, 20's and even 30's. Tastes really aren't that refined early in life. If they are shooting they are banging away with 10-22's and pounding cheap beer. They are not our target audience. Our audience is 40-100 years young. 

The single shot, Schuetzen, BPCR, etc..... crowd is very niche. There are refined tastes and interest in history. It will not have mass appeal. Coors was a one off it just so happened an individual high up in the corporate structure had an interest in Schuetzen. If his interest was in marbles perhaps he may have been able to convince the BOD of Coors to support shooting marbles.

If we want to perpetuate our traditions it is up to us. A large corporation is not going to show any interest in us. The best thing we can do is promote ourselves and our activities. Heck conduct matches where we do not have any but maybe a few people would like to start. Start small then grow. Heck who would have thought a rimfire match in Phoenix, AZ would have attracted 40 participants from 12 states? No big cash prizes, trucks or firearms.
Just a celebration of what we love and hold dare. 

I think many have grown apathetic. I put together a post with a survey asking how many on the forum are members and if you are not why. How many thousand registered users do we have...thousands and about 60 total member and non-members answered.....I appreciate the members answering and stating the benefits of membership such as the Journal. I appreciate the non-members reporting why they are not. I hope more respond this could be a tool for the ASSRA leadership in developing a plan to increase membership. The way it looks monthly we lose 2 members and gain 2 members. 

So how do we promote? Social media is free The ASSRA uses it and some local shooting groups use it. If you have a group you should use it. If you're starting a group use. Facebook is no longer in vogue for the youth. It is now mostly adults that where you need to start. Also if you do not have a local match, but want one. Put one on. You may start with 3 participants and that's ok.

  

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Re: ASSRA and ISSA There Is Strength In Numbers
Reply #44 - Apr 26th, 2026 at 6:00pm
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What we are doing now is not working. The ASSRA is treading water and the ISSA fading away. 

In January I invited leadership from the ASSRA and ISSA to set up a booth at the Single Shot Rimfire National Match. The ASSRA set up a booth I did not receive a single response from the ISSA. 

The idea for the Youtube channel is great it's just a matter of who is going to do it....There are folks working hard for the betterment of our sport. Perhaps a few more could help tip the scale....
  

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